Brexit Is Teaching Britain A Lesson In Humility; Boris Johnson finalizes EU Exit Deal!

[jj23]

The UK primed the narrative of this being being primarily connected to some rancour over Brexit, history (WWII) and historic competition when I do not see it being reported that way on the German side.

Germany/EU placed an order in Autumn 2020, from what I heard. If you have two open orders are you at liberty to fully fulfil the first, while 100% ignoring your obligations under the second (also behind schedule) order? Do people imagine that AZ will deliver every single vial to the UK before delivering any to the EU. I am guessing not. These were both advance orders, with later delivery, rather than the direct purchase of stock.

If AZ owed the UK 10 million and the EU 20 million then the normal behaviour would be to inconvenience both customers to roughly equivalent degrees, with some positive skew towards the UK for ordering earlier. During periods of oil shortage, the leading nations, all expect to get a percentage less than normal. They do not expect for deliveries to shrink to zero, while other leading countries are serviced. So if AZ had promised both parties 2million/month and they were operating 50% under capacity they would deliver 1million to each rather than just the total production of 2million to only one.

If it is being suggested that AZ is fair in unilaterally deciding who to deliver to then that means that they could very well stop supplying the UK altogether, until after it fulfilled all of the EU orders. I can't imagine that the UK would think that fair and proper.

The EU is asking for deliveries (exports) to be catalogued so they can gauge the relative rate that AZ is being delivered to the EU/UK.

Tracking that information would I can imagine be needed for later reclamation (legal or not) or just even to fully assess their position after the event.

If Brussels had been as reasonable as the news reports you are seeing in Germany, that would be one thing but there have been threats, intimidation and finally the triggering of Article 16 which had to be walked back.

All I am saying is, the EU have done nothing to help their cause as being the reasonable ones at this stage, they look like bullies. The UK has maintained the position that it expects AZ to deliver the vaccines to the timelines they require.

So if Germany wasn't involved (unlikely) and the was a unilateral decision from Brussels then the folks in Brussels may need a reality check. To think that the rancour over Brexit isn't driving these decision would be disingenuous.

 

[null]

If Brussels had been as reasonable as the news reports you are seeing in Germany, that would be one thing but there have been threats, intimidation and finally the triggering of Article 16 which had to be walked back.

All I am saying is, the EU have done nothing to help their cause as being the reasonable ones at this stage, they look like bullies. The UK has maintained the position that it expects AZ to deliver the vaccines to the timelines they require.

So if Germany wasn't involved (unlikely) and the was a unilateral decision from Brussels then the folks in Brussels may need a reality check. To think that the rancour over Brexit isn't driving these decision would be disingenuous.

I dunno about that. Do you think that the EU is angry that the UK is no longer the EU? Possibly angry because (as usual) when the UK, in exercising its own sense of specialness, leaves / acts out, they leave massive geo-political problems behind (Ireland, Scotland, Gaza, Hong Kong, Australia, Ewe ethnic issues West Africa - Ghana, English speaking Cameroon etc etc etc).

The UK ( press, politics, media) have made a mountain out of a diplomatic molehill and started preemptive protective rearguard action in the media before this became a significant issue. As part of that, they also claimed that "Brexit fallout influenced the German AstraZenica decision" and tried to tie this all together under the banner of EU angry re. Brexit, EU is being unfair, EU outfoxed by UK on vaccines.

The EU banning exports or triggering that Article would all be fair and legal. AstraZenica disproportionately delivering vaccine or being influenced by UK government would not be fair and might (depending on the contract) be illegal. But everyone will step over these facts to pick up the narrative of "bad angry europeans". If the EU wants to track vaccine shipments to ensure they get their share what's the issue?

UK/Britain spin and BS has been a feature for around 700 years


" "Perfidious Albion" is a pejorative phrase used within the context of international relations diplomacy to refer to acts of diplomatic sleights, duplicity, treachery and hence infidelity (with respect to perceived promises made to or alliances formed with other nation states) by monarchs or governments of the UK (or England prior to 1707) in their pursuit of self-interest.
The use of the adjective "perfidious" to describe England has a long history; instances have been found as far back as the 13th century.[1] "

to quote this is what the EU wants:

“The European Union wants to know exactly which doses have been produced by AstraZeneca and where exactly so far, and if or to whom they have been delivered. The answers of the company have not been satisfactory so far.”

Re: Germany and AstraZenica's vaccine for over 65's Korea is doing the same detailed check? Are they angry about Brexit too (as the UK press suggested about Germany)?

South Korea reviews AstraZeneca vaccine for elderly under rollout plan

UK BS is undefeated .. and I say that as a Brit who has spent a lot of time out of the country.

 

[jj23]

I dunno about that. Do you think that the EU is angry that the UK is no longer the EU? Possibly angry because (as usual) when the UK, in exercising its own sense of specialness, leaves / acts out, they leave massive geo-political problems behind (Ireland, Scotland, Gaza, Hong Kong, Australia, Ewe ethnic issues West Africa - Ghana, English speaking Cameroon etc etc etc).

The UK ( press, politics, media) have made a mountain out of a diplomatic molehill and started preemptive protective rearguard action in the media before this became a significant issue. As part of that, they also claimed that "Brexit fallout influenced the German AstraZenica decision" and tried to tie this all together under the banner of EU angry re. Brexit, EU is being unfair, EU outfoxed by UK on vaccines.

The EU banning exports or triggering that Article would all be fair and legal. AstraZenica disproportionately delivering vaccine or being influenced by UK government would not be fair and might (depending on the contract) be illegal. But everyone will step over these facts to pick up the narrative of "bad angry europeans". If the EU wants to track vaccine shipments to ensure they get their share what's the issue?

UK/Britain spin and BS has been a feature for around 700 years


" "Perfidious Albion" is a pejorative phrase used within the context of international relations diplomacy to refer to acts of diplomatic sleights, duplicity, treachery and hence infidelity (with respect to perceived promises made to or alliances formed with other nation states) by monarchs or governments of the UK (or England prior to 1707) in their pursuit of self-interest.
The use of the adjective "perfidious" to describe England has a long history; instances have been found as far back as the 13th century.[1] "

to quote this is what the EU wants:

“The European Union wants to know exactly which doses have been produced by AstraZeneca and where exactly so far, and if or to whom they have been delivered. The answers of the company have not been satisfactory so far.”

Re: Germany and AstraZenica's vaccine for over 65's Korea is doing the same detailed check? Are they angry about Brexit too (as the UK press suggested about Germany)?

South Korea reviews AstraZeneca vaccine for elderly under rollout plan

UK BS is undefeated .. and I say that as a Brit who has spent a lot of time out of the country.

None of what you say justifies the triggering of Article 16, which the EU walked back on. You may be focused on the details, which make perfect sense, but it doesn't justify the decisions that have been made in Brussels.

 

[null]

None of what you say justifies the triggering of Article 16, which the EU walked back on. You may be focused on the details, which make perfect sense, but it doesn't justify the decisions that have been made in Brussels.

Perhaps not. I don't see triggering that article as being such a big deal but we don't have to agree on that.

Here are around 130 instances of Article 25/28 being triggered during 2020, in closing Internal EU borders, and 250 in total including before 2020.

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/s...ations_-_reintroduction_of_border_control.pdf

That is what these articles are there for. If it is done illegally then fair enoughbut if it is legal

 

[jj23]

Perhaps not. I don't see triggering that article as being such a big deal but we don't have to agree on that.

Here are around 130 instances of Article 25/28 being triggered during 2020, in closing Internal EU borders, and 250 in total including before 2020.

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/s...ations_-_reintroduction_of_border_control.pdf

That is what these articles are there for. If it is done illegally then fair enoughbut if it is legal

Legality means nothing in the school of public opinion.

As predicted, the Tories are trying to act like they have a moral high ground now.

EU’s vaccine blunder reopens Brexit battle over Irish border

Just a massive cock up

 

[null]

Legality means nothing in the school of public opinion.

As predicted, the Tories are trying to act like they have a moral high ground now.

EU’s vaccine blunder reopens Brexit battle over Irish border

Just a massive cock up

Yeah but the Germans are hard headed and don't care about all the talk. They are tough. And they behave like adults (personality type) with a strong focus on fact based reality. We are not talking about some junior partner here. They have a bigger economy. a higher standard of living, industrial titans which are at the top of their market branch globally, they still own their major banks, their airports and they still just about have a balanced economy, are the world biggest high value exporter and they have the arrogance to go along with it.

The core wealthy broad heart of European (geographic) prosperity and wealth is the part that runs through central and southern Germany, through Switzerland, northern Italy and part of Austria. In other words mainly Teutonic germanic and they know it.

For all the names and stereotypes that we have for them, they think that the madness, chaos and focus on show and emotion is quaint in a sort of childish way, when non-violent, and barbaric when it gets violent. Remember they are winning the hard economic game and they are winning the EU power game.

They view the British as "Inselaffen" and the media games as games.

Urban Dictionary: Insel Affe

 

[jj23]

Yeah but the Germans are hard headed and don't care about all the talk. They are tough. And they behave like adults (personality type) with a strong focus on fact based reality. We are not talking about some junior partner here. They have a bigger economy. a higher standard of living, industrial titans which are at the top of their market branch globally, they still own their major banks, their airports and they still just about have a balanced economy, are the world biggest high value exporter and they have the arrogance to go along with it.

The core wealthy broad heart of European (geographic) prosperity and wealth is the part that runs through central and southern Germany, through Switzerland, northern Italy and part of Austria. In other words mainly Teutonic germanic and they know it.

For all the names and stereotypes that we have for them, they think that the madness, chaos and focus on show and emotion is quaint in a sort of childish way, when non-violent, and barbaric when it gets violent. Remember they are winning the hard economic game and they are winning the EU power game.

They view the British as "Inselaffen" and the media games as games.

Urban Dictionary: Insel Affe

Yes. Germany is big powerful and proud. They still have to live in a global economy though, where even the rights of the "Inselaffen" as they may view them is taken into account. Nothing about your explanation changes what transpired. It just makes them sound like arrogant snobs.

The fact still remains. The EU made a serious misstep invoking the article.

Things aren't just written into law. There is a nuance and expectation written around these things. The very act of Germany pretending that it was EU business and a simple article and not recognising the symbolic nature of triggering it shows they they know exactly the response that was coming, and if their reporting in Germany was deliberately dispassionate, it sounds like the media in Germany was trying to spin.

 

[null]

Yes. Germany is big powerful and proud. They still have to live in a global economy though, where even the rights of the "Inselaffen" as they may view them is taken into account. Nothing about your explanation changes what transpired. It just makes them sound like arrogant snobs.

The fact still remains. The EU made a serious misstep invoking the article.

Things aren't just written into law. There is a nuance and expectation written around these things. The very act of Germany pretending that it was EU business and a simple article and not recognising the symbolic nature of triggering it shows they they know exactly the response that was coming, and if their reporting in Germany was deliberately dispassionate, it sounds like the media in Germany was trying to spin.

Germany is just going to do what it does and it will leave the posturing and showboating to one side.

"Vorsprung durch Fakten - Advantage through Facts"

I don't like german society but I know Germans and they just don't believe vapourware trial-by-press should drive decision making.

"Germany’s government on Sunday threatened legal action against laboratories failing to deliver coronavirus vaccines to the European Union on schedule, amid tension over delays to deliveries from AstraZeneca, AFP reports.

“If it turns out that companies have not respected their obligations, we will have to decide the legal consequences,” economy minister Peter Altmaier told German daily Die Welt.

There has been growing tension in recent weeks between European leaders and the British-Swedish pharmaceutical giant AstraZeneca, which has fallen behind on promised delivers of its Covid-19 vaccine.

The company said it could now deliver only a quarter of the doses originally promised to the bloc for the first quarter of the year because of problems at one of its European factories.

Top German officials are due to meet with the drugs manufacturers to thrash out the problems.

On Friday the European Medicines Agency cleared the vaccine produced by AstraZeneca for use inside the EU, the third Covid vaccine it has approved after Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna."

Coronavirus live news: Germany eyes legal action over vaccine delays; WHO team visits Wuhan wet market


EDIT: an insight into their mentality ts 9m17s - 17m18s

 

[barese]

The AZ delay is not happening in a vacuum, there were already problems with Pfizer vaccine.

American vaccine factories are not exporting any more after the Biden push for vaccines, so European factories of Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine had to cover the whole world on top of EU.
So there were already like two months of delay...

In Italy we still have not covered the phase I of vaccination, since the request is high among both medical personnel and retirement homes. In Lombardy we need those vaccines and people are pissed... So politicians have to squeeze the companies as much as possible to try to get the vaccines.

 

[jj23]

The AZ delay is not happening in a vacuum, there were already problems with Pfizer vaccine.

American vaccine factories are not exporting any more after the Biden push for vaccines, so European factories of Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine had to cover the whole world on top of EU.
So there were already like two months of delay...

In Italy we still have not covered the phase I of vaccination, since the request is high among both medical personnel and retirement homes. In Lombardy we need those vaccines and people are pissed... So politicians have to squeeze the companies as much as possible to try to get the vaccines.

I disagree. This is all political posturing, despite the spin.

This needs to be handled by politicians, and it will involve negotiation and compromise. It will not be fixed by pressuring AZ.

If you try to press AZ, and stop vaccines coming out of Belgium, then the UK stops vaccines being exported from the AZ factories in the UK. Considering the issues the factory in Belgium has had that would actually make things worse for the EU.

People need the vaccines. There aren't enough to go around, but there is a reason for that, if we want to really break things down to simple business.

You are AZ. You have a product. Company A reviews the product and commits to 100 units of the product, company B says they will review and dependant on the review, they would need 200 units of the product.

The question then becomes when company B expected the product vs when AZ expected to begin production for company B. That's what's in dispute.

Considering company B could have said no thanks to the product after review, it isn't unreasonable for AZ to supply their product to the company that gave them a guarantee. It is also not unreasonable to expect, unless the contract stipulated otherwise, that AZ would have prepared the product for company B on point of approval.

So whether or not the EU would like to show or not, it is in a bind.

You can take AZ to court for breach of contract, but that won't guarantee you your vaccines in the timeframe you expected.

You can stop exports of the vaccine, but that also gives you no guarantees

Where does all of this tie back into Brexit? Because the country you now have to negotiate with is the UK; which is a bit shyt after the way you dragged them with Brexit.

That's why they triggered article 16. If you think it's business and not desperation because they made a fundamental mistake and now need to spin this for their member countries who NEED and EXPECTED the vaccine by now, is amazing to me.

I have criticized the UK relentlessly for Brexit, but the EU dropped the ball here. They need to own it.

 

[null]

I disagree. This is all political posturing, despite the spin.

The question then becomes when company B expected the product vs when AZ expected to begin production for company B. That's what's in dispute.

Considering company B could have said no thanks to the product after review, it isn't unreasonable for AZ to supply their product to the company that gave them a guarantee. It is also not unreasonable to expect, unless the contract stipulated otherwise, that AZ would have prepared the product for company B on point of approval.

Twaddle.

The problem is that AZ is not distributing its output equitably between its current standing open orders when both delivery pipelines to both customers are in arrears aka past due.

That is how business works. You cannot delay one customer (A) 100% until you fully fulfil the order of the other customer (B) when that goes against the schedule you have committed to in your contract with customer A and expect customer A to ignore it.

Customer A is well within their rights and expected behaviour if they seek legal redress or even (as in this case) use their other regulatory reach to rectify the situation.

Those are the stripped down facts

Spoiler: ...

You have no idea about when non-reversible commitments and/or payments were made so leave the tabloid-esque justifications out of it.

 

[jj23]

Twaddle.

The problem is that AZ is not distributing its output equitably between its current standing open orders when both delivery pipelines to both customers are in arrears aka past due.

That is how business works. You cannot delay one customer (A) 100% until you fully fulfil the order of the other customer (B) when that goes against the schedule you have committed to in your contract with customer A and expect customer A to ignore it.

Customer A is well within their rights and expected behaviour if they seek legal redress or even (as in this case) use their other regulatory reach to rectify the situation.

Those are the stripped down facts

Spoiler: ...

You have no idea about when non-reversible commitments and/or payments were made so leave the tabloid-esque justifications out of it.

Do you have the contract to see this?

Do what you have said then. Seek legal redress. People are still not getting the vaccines.
If expectations were made, and AZ isn't going to make the timeliness, what's your redress? Stopping exports? Article 16?

Will the UK’s contractual obligations be ignored?

Right. Sounds like you still need to negotiate.

 

[null]

Do you have the contract to see this?

Those are the statements that have been made in public and which have not been challenged by the other side but you ignore that to repeat more tabloid-esque fantasies. AZ / UK have been asked to produce export figures and contracts. By not doing so they are playing hard ball. Yet true to form, they byatch when the other party takes their gloves off. If AZ and the UK have nothing to hide just produce the numbers, show the contract, show you are being fair and be done with it.

Instead of facts we get more waffle.

Spoiler: ...

"Britain and AstraZeneca have said the two British plants, in Staffordshire and Oxford, can supply the EU – but only once the UK order of 100 million jabs was fulfilled. "

"Brussels was infuriated after AstraZeneca said it would only be able to supply a quarter of the 100 million jabs it had promised to the EU, which negotiated as a bloc, for the first quarter of the year. On Friday, it rejected an offer from AstraZeneca to supply eight million more doses, which was aimed at defusing the row. "

"With the EU lagging far behind Britain in its vaccination rollout, and amid fears that EU vaccine stock had ended up in the UK or been sold to countries paying a higher price, the commission doubled down on its demand that supplies be diverted from Britain. "

"It also demanded that suppliers provided details of the last three months of vaccine exports from the EU, and officials have called on Britain to publish its contract with AstraZeneca. "

Treat AstraZeneca's UK Covid vaccine factories as though they are part of EU, Brussels says

Do what you have said then. Seek legal redress. People are still not getting the vaccines.

the "non emotional" part is not sinking in right.

 

[jj23]

Those are the statements that have been made in public and which have not been challenged by the other side but you ignore that to repeat more tabloid-esque fantasies. AZ / UK have been asked to produce export figures and contracts. By not doing so they are playing hard ball. Yet true to form, they byatch when the other party takes their gloves off. If AZ and the UK have nothing to hide just produce the numbers, show the contract, show you are being fair and be done with it.

Instead of facts we get more waffle.

Spoiler: ...

"Britain and AstraZeneca have said the two British plants, in Staffordshire and Oxford, can supply the EU – but only once the UK order of 100 million jabs was fulfilled. "

"Brussels was infuriated after AstraZeneca said it would only be able to supply a quarter of the 100 million jabs it had promised to the EU, which negotiated as a bloc, for the first quarter of the year. On Friday, it rejected an offer from AstraZeneca to supply eight million more doses, which was aimed at defusing the row. "

"With the EU lagging far behind Britain in its vaccination rollout, and amid fears that EU vaccine stock had ended up in the UK or been sold to countries paying a higher price, the commission doubled down on its demand that supplies be diverted from Britain. "

"It also demanded that suppliers provided details of the last three months of vaccine exports from the EU, and officials have called on Britain to publish its contract with AstraZeneca. "

Treat AstraZeneca's UK Covid vaccine factories as though they are part of EU, Brussels says

the "non emotional" part is not sinking in right.

Thanks for the info. I'll keep reading my tabloid-esque fantasies.

Let's see where things end up.

 

[null]

Thanks for the info. I'll keep reading my tabloid-esque fantasies.

Let's see where things end up.

the dog and pony show WWII triumph redux bedtime stories, created around this thing is the objectionable part. lets the courts decide