Bill Gates new initiative.

DEAD7

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Two points.

1. I agree with you re: equal opportunity. But that's exactly why I believe in my form of egalitarianism, since for me, equal opportunity entails the position of minimum guaranteed standard of living. It's impossible to separate the two unless opportunity is conceived narrowly, at which point it's not equal opportunity anymore. Truthfully, I don't even believe in generational wealth inheritance, which is profoundly anti-meritocratic (notice how there are people now who still live on slavery money, and hell, there are people now who are living on medieval lordly money... studies have been done on last names in Europe, and people with "peasant" names still have less money on average than people whose last names originated from medieval lordly houses in the 1400s, even though Capitalism supposedly freed us from feudalism) though that position could only be properly instituted in a society very different from ours and so doesn't factor too strongly into my more pragmatic, concrete positions about the present.

2. I lean towards opportunity more than results, obviously, but I don't think results can be ignored completely. The paradox we have to deal with is that equal opportunity will forever be in a dance with equal outcomes, and can be destroyed very easily through unequal results. One generation of starkly unequal outcomes is enough. That's why lazy bum #1 can be rich from inherited wealth while hardworking, intelligent person #2 starts from the bottom and never makes it, or is never even in a position where they might have made it. The way I want to deal with this is by limiting the possible disparity, which is probably where you disagree. Ideally, this would be done by destroying generational inheritance altogether, as I stated earlier, but more realistically, there are other things we can do in the present. When the richest make more than 1,000 times as much as the poorest, equal opportunity becomes nothing but an illusion used to cover up what is essentially feudalism, in politics (ie political dynasties like the Kennedys, Clintons, or Bush, which really are dynasties in a neo-feudal sense) in business, and everywhere else.

1. I disagree with your perspective because of the arbitrary and vague nature of it. What this minimum standard of living? Who decides this? Who pays? why? and by what authority?(the answers posing their own set of problems)All these are solved/answered by surrogate decision makers often far removed from the circumstance in question, and who suffer no recourse should things go badly. Placing the decision making power in the hands of those with the most to lose insures not only better decision making, but accountability.
The disdain for inheritance and wealth in general, for whatever reason, are emotions and extremely subjective varying from person to person. This alone makes them a shaky foundation for any policy or ideology by which one would govern/guide a society...


2. I am concerned solely with opportunity.
If a race is run, fairly, with all the rules known in advance and without any hindering/beneficial conditions for a competitor. It wouldn't matter to me if the same person won the race every time. As long as the race was fair.
The idea that the fastest runner should be penalized for being faster or the others helped because they are slower not only undermines the entire race, its (IMHO) immoral, and completely unethical.




The exceptions to the fairness of the game, those receiving windfall gains, from their parents, or those who find themselves in poverty through no fault of their own, are viewed as acceptable cost. Worth the benefit of a fair system with lots of mobility and opportunity.

The question I toy with when giving liberals the benefit of the doubt is -is it necessary to compensate for the unequal starting points people occupy?-
 

The Real

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1. I disagree with your perspective because of the arbitrary and vague nature of it. What this minimum standard of living? Who decides this? Who pays? why? and by what authority?(the answers posing their own set of problems)All these are solved/answered by surrogate decision makers often far removed from the circumstance in question, and who suffer no recourse should things go badly. Placing the decision making power in the hands of those with the most to lose insures not only better decision making, but accountability.
The disdain for inheritance and wealth in general, for whatever reason, are emotions and extremely subjective varying from person to person. This alone makes them a shaky foundation for any policy or ideology by which one would govern/guide a society...


2. I am concerned solely with opportunity.
If a race is run, fairly, with all the rules known in advance and without any hindering/beneficial conditions for a competitor. It wouldn't matter to me if the same person won the race every time. As long as the race was fair.
The idea that the fastest runner should be penalized for being faster or the others helped because they are slower not only undermines the entire race, its (IMHO) immoral, and completely unethical.




The exceptions to the fairness of the game, those receiving windfall gains, from their parents, or those who find themselves in poverty through no fault of their own, are viewed as acceptable cost. Worth the benefit of a fair system with lots of mobility and opportunity.

The question I toy with when giving liberals the benefit of the doubt is -is it necessary to compensate for the unequal starting points people occupy?-

1. It's a normative position. It's no more arbitrary than the idea that humans have natural rights, or that people who are poor through no fault of their own are worth sacrificing so that a few people can be wealthy, or that atomized individualism is better than notions of common social good. None of those are rational ideas. Who decides? That's settled through the political process (and right now, most Americans would vote in favor of one, according to most polls.) I'd rather have voters and politicians (who in my system would not be wealthy elites as they are now) decide than the "natural workings of the market" (wealthy businessmen,) which is what would happen in your ideal conditions. Who pays? That's handled in taxes and through distribution of certain surpluses. By what authority? I lean Republican (in the classical sense,) not liberal like you, so I operate by a notion of Republican sovereignty, though at the end of the day, that question is less relevant- all forms of political authority are social constructs, after all. Civic Republicanism/humanism entails cultivating notions of civic virtue through public institutions of all kinds. The only people who currently suffer no recourse should things go badly are the wealthy elites, and that's how it will always be under a system that permits vast inequality. As for decision-making and expertise, that matter can be handled by a number of legal and political reforms that have no specific connection to any political system.

2. Your analogy relies on natural traits individual to the runners. Inherited wealth, white supremacy, and many other factors are anything but natural and individual traits. They conform precisely to the "hindering/beneficial" conditions you claim to oppose. I don't see any way in which your analogy, consistently followed-through, ends up in classical liberal/libertarian defenses of massive wealth disparity. As for social mobility, it's a myth- both now and at pretty much every stage in the development of capitalism. That's specifically why I pointed out the neo-feudal elements of the present in my previous post. How much opportunity and fairness has capitalism given you if wealth (not just income) still corresponds to feudal classes and lordly surnames from 700 years ago?
 
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DEAD7

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1. It's a normative position. It's no more arbitrary than the idea that humans have natural rights, or that people who are poor through no fault of their own are worth sacrificing so that a few people can be wealthy, or that atomized individualism is better than notions of common social good. None of those are rational ideas. Who decides? That's settled through the political process (and right now, most Americans would vote in favor of one, according to most polls.) I'd rather have voters and politicians (who in my system would not be wealthy elites as they are now) decide than the "natural workings of the market" (wealthy businessmen,) which is what would happen in your ideal conditions. Who pays? That's handled in taxes and through distribution of certain surpluses. By what authority? I lean Republican (in the classical sense,) not liberal like you, so I operate by a notion of Republican sovereignty, though at the end of the day, that question is less relevant- all forms of political authority are social constructs, after all. Civic Republicanism/humanism entails cultivating notions of civic virtue through public institutions of all kinds. The only people who currently suffer no recourse should things go badly are the wealthy elites, and that's how it will always be under a system that permits vast inequality. As for decision-making and expertise, that matter can be handled by a number of legal and political reforms that have no specific connection to any political system.

2. Your analogy relies on natural traits individual to the runners. Inherited wealth, white supremacy, and many other factors are anything but natural and individual traits. They conform precisely to the "hindering/beneficial" conditions you claim to oppose. I don't see any way in which your analogy, consistently followed-through, ends up in classical liberal/libertarian defenses of massive wealth disparity. As for social mobility, it's a myth- both now and at pretty much every stage in the development of capitalism. That's specifically why I pointed out the neo-feudal elements of the present in my previous post. How much opportunity and fairness has capitalism given you if wealth (not just income) still corresponds to feudal classes and lordly surnames from 700 years ago?

1. Govt. suffers no recourse... none, and is directly responsible for the wealth disparity. Where do you think wealthy elites come in at?
and I wouldnt call the promotion of voluntary human interaction arbitrary(summarizing natural rights), I would call it the only moral relationship between people. Morality of course being paramount in all facets of my ideology.


2. Inherited wealth is viewed as an acceptable cost, with the benefits(in this case the most powerful nation on the planet) outweighing those instances. The other factors racism and the such wouldn't be present in a fair race. Keep in mind the wealth disparity exist because of govt.
Inflation being the main contributor to this factor as well as regulations that have cost the country millions of jobs. Business's have don't what they have always done, and will continue to do in every economic system, increase profits.
 

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Without Gates, our computer experience would be no where near it is.
jay-z-kanye-createacap-e1311150142585.png
 

GREENandYELLOW

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It's because most of the super-rich didn't earn most of their wealth. Gates is a perfect example. He used everything but actual innovation- family connections/nepotism, insider info, ripping off ideas from smaller companies and superior products- to get rich. He was consistently following, rather than leading, tech innovation, and the more the company grew, the more he was able to exploit those processes. The monopoly of Microsoft was a disgrace no matter how you slice it.

This is a perfect example of Capitalism rewarding rent-seeking behavior instead of actual innovation, btw.

I agree with your post, but Gates was\is extremely innovative......Can't be denied actually
 
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Most people will never understand that science comes from profit-motivated people. They think scientists are some sort of benevolent non-human gods.

This statement is completely incorrect .

There are pure science , applied science , and technology.

Science is used to discover reality by finding the truth. It answers the question What is it? It comes in grasp of natural laws. All their findings are published for public knowledge. Since Science runs off of published work and proven data this eliminates secrecy. Secrecy goes hand in hand with money and power.

The "profit motivated people" are those who work in technology. Apple, Samsung etc. Patent's will never be public knowledge. Can you find how to completely start from scratch to "invent the internet?" . To reproduce Coca-Cola? Hell nah .

Don't confuse technology with science , they are their own being.
 

Kritic

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I agree with your post, but Gates was\is extremely innovative......Can't be denied actually
microsoft is not innovative at all. they're always playing catch up behind apple. they maintain their position by playing ligitation game with their drivers.

the only big players innovating are google and apple.
 

Kritic

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like this nicca said...
It's because most of the super-rich didn't earn most of their wealth. Gates is a perfect example. He used everything but actual innovation- family connections/nepotism, insider info, ripping off ideas from smaller companies and superior products- to get rich. He was consistently following, rather than leading, tech innovation, and the more the company grew, the more he was able to exploit those processes. The monopoly of Microsoft was a disgrace no matter how you slice it.

This is a perfect example of Capitalism rewarding rent-seeking behavior instead of actual innovation, btw.
 

Kritic

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Most people will never understand that science comes from profit-motivated people. They think scientists are some sort of benevolent non-human gods.
science comes from people who want to make life easier. make things run better. those people are actually not good in business.

when man was inventing the wheel he wasn't thinking about how he could make money off it.
 
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microsoft is not innovative at all. they're always playing catch up behind apple. they maintain their position by playing ligitation game with their drivers.

the only big players innovating are google and apple.

You lost me right there.....Trendy is not innovative.....There were touch screen capacitive phones for phones at least a decade before the Iphone dropped....

Apple made the package prettier and added multi touch tech and voila....Everyone is calling them innovative, when its mostly marketing and business savvy....The phone hasn't had any major changes in 6 years....

Pushing for cheaper hardware so you can design software that fits any platform is innovative........

Google is an innovative company, I'll give you that......

M$ will be here long after Apple....Trust Me
 
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science comes from people who want to make life easier. make things run better. those people are actually not good in business.

when man was inventing the wheel he wasn't thinking about how he could make money off it.

He would if he was staying in America the last 30 years......Uber Capitalism just hit the scene in the last 30 years or so
 
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