BBC4's "Islam: The Untold Story" (2012)

[zerozero]

lol

you keep posting trash conspiracy 'scholarship' about islam breh like that book you posted a while ago

I don't understand, why do you need to act like a truther if you're really interested?

 

[Tom]

Because I don't believe in magic, elfs, wizards, witches, demons or angels and that all things on earth have natural explanations bro^^

 

[Serious]

the resolution on this film is crystal clear

 

[zerozero]

Because I don't believe in magic, elfs or angels and that all things on earth have natural explanations bro^^

your response to someone talking about angels is to post medieval polemics and unfounded conspiracies that islamic history is a forgery?

 

[Tom]

your response to someone talking about angels is to post medieval polemics and unfounded conspiracies that islamic history is a forgery?

My response is to pass on something I thought would be interesting/and to remind myself to check it out for a later viewing.

 

[zerozero]

My response is to pass on something I thought would be interesting/to remind myself to check it out for a later viewing.

that's fine but maybe you should try real history or scholarship for a change.

 

[Tom]

that's fine but maybe you should try real history or scholarship for a change.

Point me in the direction of real Islamic history/scholarship that doesn't allude to the fact that Muhammad got all his information from an angel in a cave.

 

[zerozero]

you gotta be kidding breh. you think there's nobody who writes about history or the quran who isn't a believer in islam, therefore you have to turn to bad scholarship about the religion? go on wikipedia and find a bibliography or something

 

[zerozero]

Islam: the Untold Story, review - Telegraph

Were the Arabs of the seventh century Muslim at all? Tom Holland, the populariser of ancient history in bestsellers such as Rubicon, which examined the triumph and tragedy of the Roman Republic, kept on asking questions like that during Islam: the Untold Story (Channel 4). Untold it remained. After scrolling through typescripts on microfilm he exclaimed, “There’s nothing there,” as if it was rather annoying that Mohammed had not taken the trouble to leave behind a miniaturised account on spools of celluloid.
That wasn’t the most annoying thing for the viewer of this disjointed programme. If the microfilm machine made an unpleasant whirring it was nothing to the lengthy scenes in old Jerusalem punctuated by repeated robotic gasps made by security cameras on street walls.
There was the usual problem of television abhorring a visual vacuum. But at least in this case it meant that Holland was finding nothing in some agreeably sunny settings, balancing excitingly on the supposed ruins of Sodom, or asking some Bedouin around a camp fire in the desert about the first years of Islam. However wisely leather-cheeked and gap-toothed they might be, it is hard to see why they should be better informed on such matters than workers from the Sunderland car plant would be about the life and times of the Venerable Bede.
Nothing emerged but a metaphorical “black hole” from the decades after the Muslim Prophet’s death in 632. The first caliph to put the name of Mohammed on coins did so more than 60 years after his death. We were expected to find this rather a long time, but it sounds quick to me. It was as if Roman coinage had borne the name of Jesus while the Apostle John was still alive.

 

[Tom]

you gotta be kidding breh. you think there's nobody who writes about history or the quran who isn't a believer in islam, therefore you have to turn to dumb bad scholarship about the religion? go on wikipedia and find a bibliography or something

Maybe I'm just ignorant but I know of no other origins of the Quran outside of it being the word of God himself given directly to Muhammad.


If you know of any books/articles that say otherwise please point me in that directions. Give me names and authors please.

 

[zerozero]

Maybe I'm just ignorant but I know of no other origins of the Quran outside of it being the word of God himself given directly to Muhammad.


If you know of any books/articles that say otherwise please point me in the directions. Give me names and authors please.

you're starting off with a goal in mind though. you want to believe the quran was not recited by muhammad so you want to find where else it might have come from. in that case you're going to end up with conspiracy by default because there's no evidence from that era that suggests such a thing

 

[Tom]

you're starting off with a goal in mind though. you want to believe the quran was not recited by muhammad so you want to find where else it might have come from. in that case you're going to end up with conspiracy by default because there's no evidence from that era that suggests such a thing

That's what I'm saying bro.


shyt's cray

 

[zerozero]

That's what I'm saying bro.


shyt's cray

it's crazy that when you're looking for evidence of something for which there's no evidence, you end up chasing rabbitholes into non-peer-reviewed research and marginal ideas? why? If I wanted to prove Ben Franklin wasn't around when they were writing the constitution of america I'd have to resort to conspiracies too. the question is what sort of reasoning process leads you to that idea--even if you don't have evidence there has to be some sort of meaningful thinking.

 

[Tom]

it's crazy that when you're looking for evidence of something for which there's no evidence, you end up chasing rabbitholes into non-peer-reviewed research and marginal ideas? why? If I wanted to prove Ben Franklin wasn't around when they were writing the constitution of america I'd have to resort to conspiracies too. the question is what sort of reasoning process leads you to that idea--even if you don't have evidence there has to be some sort of meaningful thinking.

The whole Angel thing bro




but I do understand what you're saying. What you have to understand that there are those of us who don't subscribe to that supernatural stuff and thus prefer to look for alternatives. If there was a popular belief that Ben Franklin was a werewolf you'd be skeptical of that story also because you don't believe in werewolves. Saying he got the book from an Angel is illogical to me and a lot of other people too bro. How do you not comprehend this?

 

[zerozero]

The whole Angel thing bro




but I do understand what you're saying. What you have to understand that there are those of us who don't subscribe to that supernatural stuff and thus prefer to look for alternatives. If there was a popular belief that Ben Franklin was a werewolf you'd be skeptical of that story also because you don't believe in werewolves.

We seem to be talking past each other. The issue about an angel revealing the Quran is different from the issue of whether the other guys in Makkah got the Quran from hearing it from Muhammad. There are actual graves of men who died in the inter-tribal fighting over Muhammad's message breh There are peace treaties and specific hills and things. Caves and carvings and trading trails. He was there alright.

When it comes to the Quran, you're essentially saying, what's the proof that all the primary evidence isn't faked a few decades later. But nobody can prove a negative. Maybe people who think it was composed later should do the proving.