Athiests & Firm Believers In Evolution....Come Hither

[Dirty_Jerz]

Is killing people only bad because god (or whatever deity you believe in) said so? What if he didn't?

What if god said "Thou shalt rape women" - would that make it an ethical thing to do?

well some "gods" do so some dont so yes depending on what that individual believes is right or believes is wrong but chooses to follow that isnt really getting to the topic at hand here

 

[NoMayo15]

Not to mention there is evidence of altruism in other animals

 

[Dirty_Jerz]

Not to mention there is evidence of altruism in other animals

for survival yes


otherwise? show and prove friend your welcome

 

[DANKTHRONE]

so where does morality come from? does that man have the answer to that?
if we are going to talk about the creator than we shouldnt be limiting the creator of all to human concepts because that wouldnt make sense

the set rules given to humans shouldnt be thrown back at the creator who is beyond human rule

This is stupid and ends the conversation. If we have no ability to understand anything beyond human concepts, then God is literally unknowable and there is no way to say if morality "comes from" him or not. It is literally nonsense to talk about God at all. Although the case isn't made at all as to why "reason" and "arbitrariness" are humans concepts and the only reason you are saying they are is an ad hoc defense to your argument.

And the question of where does morality come from can mean different things. Morality as an abstract set of rules might come from 1) maximizing happiness which is call utilitarianism 2) commands that all entities can reasonable assent to which is called deontological ethics or 3) performing the best that you can in your specific situation which is called virtue ethics.

Those lead to the question of why humans have the impulse to make these codes or to call actions morally right or wrong or to feel certain pulls to acting morally right or wrong. I said it has to do with the evolution of the mammalian brain. For example, mammalian offspring bonding is probably the source for some of it. Evolution isn't just fukk YOU I'M GOING TO SURVIVE at all costs. It doesn't work that way. If it did then mammals wouldn't be evolutionarily viable.

 

[DANKTHRONE]

for survival yes


otherwise? show and prove friend your welcome

Under what conditions would a human perform an altruistic act that could not be framed in terms of survival? Taking 3 seconds to look at the wiki page:

In the science of ethology (the study of behavior), and more generally in the study of social evolution, on occasion, some animals do behave in ways that reduce their individual fitness but increase the fitness of other individuals in the population; this is a functional definition of altruism.

Giving a beggar a loaf of bread can be framed in this way. I am slightly lowering my chance of survival by giving away food, but am increasing the chances slightly in another individual.

You should have to give us an example of altruism for altruism's sake.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Also Socrates over 2000 years ago pretty convincingly argues that morality can not come from God. Either God has reasons for giving moral commands or he doesn't. If he does, then there is a standard of morality independent of God. If not, then morality is completely arbitrary and God just gave us a trivial set of demands that could have been replaced by another set.

Euthyphro Dilemma is invalid and creates an invalid either/or situation because a) the choices must contradict each other, and b) those are not the only two options. Ever heard of Divine Command Theory?
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[daze23]

 

[Darts]

Atheists learnt about morality from religion just like the rest of us...some choose to deny it, others are ignorant to the fact that they did.

 

[ExodusNirvana]

Atheists learnt about morality from religion just like the rest of us...some choose to deny it, others are ignorant to the fact that they did.

Your post implies that all atheists were raised religious and then chose to be atheists.

 

[daze23]

Atheists learnt about morality from religion just like the rest of us...some choose to deny it, others are ignorant to the fact that they did.

these religions all originated at some point. so were there no morals before that?

 

[DANKTHRONE]

Euthyphro Dilemma is invalid and creates an invalid either/or situation because a) the choices must contradict each other, and b) those are not the only two options. Ever heard of Divine Command Theory?
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Obviously I have heard of DCT if I've heard of the Euthyphro dilemma. What makes the ED invalid exactly? There is nothing invalid about the form "either x or not x". In fact, it is necessarily true. And those are the only two choices, since I am partitioning the world into two sets. You have to tell me why this partition would result in a paradox, because I can't see what you are talking about.

 

[Dirty_Jerz]

This is stupid and ends the conversation. If we have no ability to understand anything beyond human concepts, then God is literally unknowable and there is no way to say if morality "comes from" him or not. It is literally nonsense to talk about God at all. Although the case isn't made at all as to why "reason" and "arbitrariness" are humans concepts and the only reason you are saying they are is an ad hoc defense to your argument.

your putting words in my post with this one friend i simply stated you cannot expect to limit the creator to the abilities of what his creation that is given a different set of abilities with a physical limit is capable of that is all the rest is from you

And the question of where does morality come from can mean different things. Morality as an abstract set of rules might come from 1) maximizing happiness which is call utilitarianism 2) commands that all entities can reasonable assent to which is called deontological ethics or 3) performing the best that you can in your specific situation which is called virtue ethics.

where do morals come from all of the above 4)

Those lead to the question of why humans have the impulse to make these codes or to call actions morally right or wrong or to feel certain pulls to acting morally right or wrong. I said it has to do with the evolution of the mammalian brain. For example, mammalian offspring bonding is probably the source for some of it. Evolution isn't just fukk YOU I'M GOING TO SURVIVE at all costs. It doesn't work that way. If it did then mammals wouldn't be evolutionarily viable.

actually yes evolution does work that way the survival of the fittest each trying to live by any means they are capable of in order to spread more of themselves around

that "bonding" link seems like its just a way to teach the young ones how to survive sexually and who to take after to show how to get food no more no less

Under what conditions would a human perform an altruistic act that could not be framed in terms of survival? Taking 3 seconds to look at the wiki page:


Giving a beggar a loaf of bread can be framed in this way. I am slightly lowering my chance of survival by giving away food, but am increasing the chances slightly in another individual.

a human giving another human food isnt a example of a different species of animal doing it so what are you proving here? also giving a panhandler food isnt making you decrease in fitness its giving away your food

if you really want to get into that there is a good chance that peice of bread wasnt going to be eating by you anyway if you already have abundance it might have infact worked in your favor by getting rid of something that would burden you later or possibly that street rat was your family and you just saved his life

You should have to give us an example of altruism for altruism's sake.

 

[Darts]

Your post implies that all atheists were raised religious and then chose to be atheists.

No i'm basically saying it would be impossible for someone to escape religious teachings because its been all around us for centuries, implicitly or explicitly. So of course atheists would have absorbed those teachings of good and evil, right from wrong etc. in some way or another...even if they weren't raised in the church.

 

[Dirty_Jerz]

these religions all originated at some point. so were there no morals before that?

according to evolution no

 

[daze23]

according to evolution no

huh? care to explain?