At least 280 killed in inter-communal clashes in Central African Republic

[mbewane]

Gotcha.

Would you say there were any ethnic conflicts prior to this over land and such? I ask cuz I read most of the Christians live sedentary lives whereas Muslims were nomadic. Its similar to how Ethiopian C's and M's were gettin into conflict centuries back. Makes me wonder if this wasn't something that built up over the years, seeing as how it seems like C.A.R. always been fukked cuz of corruption and gross underdevelopment.

Another element that might be worth mentionning is that recently many "charities" and schools financed by Gulf States (and Turkey, though they seem cool about it) have popped up in CAR, where the failure of the state has left the door open to such activities. Whether this is related to the rise in power of the Seleka and teh current religious tension, I have no idea.

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

Kindaish lol

Here's the thing: most muslims live in the North and North-East, which with the East are even poorer than the rest of the country, no roads, the state is absent etc. It's just a fact that the country is so poor and those are the regions who are the furthest from the capital and main trade routes (towards Cameroon mostly). So this is a geographical fact, and it just so happens that in two of these regions there are more muslims than in others, since they are closest to Chad and Sudan. But that doesn't mean these are "muslim regions", christians and animists are still the majority there. And in the East it's the same as everywhere (note: East CAR is wher Kony has been "hiding" for at least 5 years. No idea where the US is looking for him lol).

Anyway yes, this situation has led to some tension, added to what you pointed out (sedentarty vs nomad), plus the fact that earlier in history Arabs were trading slaves from the North and operating razzias there. Nonetheless, these tensions were never "an issue". Again, I repeat, with all the coups d'état, rebellions etc that we've had, NEVER has religion been a factor, you always had christians AND muslims on both sides of whatever was happening at that particular moment. Conflicts were political and somewhat ethnic, mostly between "christian" groups actually. (again, this religious categorization that does not really work in CAR. People identify with their ethnic group more than their religion).

This is something that has never happened before in CAR. I can't stress enough that people didn't even care that much about religion (neither christians nor muslims) before Seleka came thru.

I see

That's kinda what made this situation odd to me. That part of Africa doesn't exactly seem like it'd be prone to religious violence. C.A.R. for the most part was outside that Muslim Sudanese periphery but they depopulated the East in the name of slave trading. So in both instances the religions in question didn't have as long a history in the country as one would expect, especially the Christians. I read that the East is pretty fukked up and underdeveloped, makes me wonder who the tribes were that were so thoroughly cleaned away from their ancestral lands.

So basically, the religion aspect of it is simply a new layer on what's been a very compounded issue. Corruption and underdevelopment are the real issues at hand, religion just so happens to be the new way to express the frustration right? Cuz it doesn't seem like Seleka or they leader is on some Sharia Law type shyt.

 

[theworldismine13]

So religion wasn't an issue until some Muslims made it an issue, figures

 

[TTT]

Unfortunately most of the world is catching up with this conflict just now, but it's really just the latest (and biggest) outburst of violence in many years. No, it's not originally over religion. Here's the deal: There are about 80 % christians in CAR, and 10 % muslims. Over the 60+ years of political chaos/poverty/whatever you want to call it in CAR, religion has NEVER, repeat, NEVER been an issue. It wasn't an issue as early as two years ago. We've had countless coup d'états, rebellions etc but it has NEVER been along religious lines. Granted, you've always had tensions in the North over land but the country is big enough (think France+Belgium) and underpopulated (4.5 mil) so that there's enough space for everybody.

What changed? Seleka the makeshift conglomerate of rebels, mercenaries, etc. who took power in March. It just so happens that the majority of Seleka are muslims, including Chadians and Sudanese people who don't even speak any local language. It also just so happens that when they were marching on Bangui they were pillaging, killing and raping nearly everyone, EXCEPT Muslims. So obviously at some point other centralafricans understood what was going on. Add to that that they were starting to impose bans on pork for example and stuff like that, and you understand where the religious aspect of the conflict comes from. It's not "right" to say that the "anti-balaka" groups are "Christians", they're originally just random people who wanted to protect their villages from assaillants. It's not like it's some of organized christian aarmy or whatever.

To make it clear: Seleka's actions is wha led to the religious aspect of the conflict, nothing else. People didn't even care taht much about religion there, but when foreign troops come into town and use religion as a tool, people are gonna react.



I'd rather have them than...no one. Or are you one of those who are happy to see Africans die as long as no foreign power is involved?



Hardly anything. The FOMAC forces never got to full capacity, and it's even worse because there's a Chadian regiment who is HEAVILLY suspected of playing both sides, since Seleka is backed by Chad. Let's not forget that France was ASKED to intervene by the CAR, the UN and...the AU. So instead of pointing the finger at France for its intervention, let's point the finger at those doing nothing. That includes most African countries, the AU, and the US (who voted against sending UN forces there).



Thanks for quoting me, been too busy following the events there to take time to share my thoughts on this. Indeed I'm from CAR, so I'm glad to give any info you guys might be interested in.

Regarding the whole Hollande and Sarkozy thing, from what I understood it's because Hollande was flying to Bangui afterwards, and there was no reason for Sarkozy to come along there.

How much of the instability if any is due to the Libyan fallout and weapons proliferation. I have seen Chad being mentioned as a base for some of these militants.

 

[mbewane]

I see

That's kinda what made this situation odd to me. That part of Africa doesn't exactly seem like it'd be prone to religious violence. C.A.R. for the most part was outside that Muslim Sudanese periphery but they depopulated the East in the name of slave trading. So in both instances the religions in question didn't have as long a history in the country as one would expect, especially the Christians. I read that the East is pretty fukked up and underdeveloped, makes me wonder who the tribes were that were so thoroughly cleaned away from their ancestral lands.

So basically, the religion aspect of it is simply a new layer on what's been a very compounded issue. Corruption and underdevelopment are the real issues at hand, religion just so happens to be the new way to express the frustration right? Cuz it doesn't seem like Seleka or they leader is on some Sharia Law type shyt.

I'd say that's basically it. But it must be clear that Seleka was using religion to differentiate between people: non-muslims were being pillaged, looted etc, while muslims were mostly not. Second, as I said earlier, in some places they were trying to ban the selling of pork.

But indeed they were not "out" for a Sharia Law thing like for example Boko Haram or other lunatics, rather "just" discriminating who they were primarily targetting. The president (muslim) was mostly saying all the right things and his Prime minister is a Christian (I mean I assume he is, again we don't really identitfy people based on their religion. I just know he's not a muslim).

I swear it's really strange to talk about this conflict and CAR along religious lines, shyt was never an issue until late last year

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

How much of the instability if any is due to the Libyan fallout and weapons proliferation. I have seen Chad being mentioned as a base for some of these militants.

I actually remember vaguely that Libya's fall meant easier access to the mineral rich interior. C.A.R. got uranium too....

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

I'd say that's basically it. But it must be clear that Seleka was using religion to differentiate between people: non-muslims were being pillaged, looted etc, while muslims were mostly not. Second, as I said earlier, in some places they were trying to ban the selling of pork.

But indeed they were not "out" for a Sharia Law thing like for example Boko Haram or other lunatics, rather "just" discriminating who they were primarily targetting. The president (muslim) was mostly saying all the right things and his Prime minister is a Christian (I mean I assume he is, again we don't really identitfy people based on their religion. I just know he's not a muslim).

I swear it's really strange to talk about this conflict and CAR along religious lines, shyt was never an issue until late last year

I gotchu, but it still seems strange. Unless the Christians oppressed the Muslims which it doesn't seem like I don't see the reason for this. Their backers could be more on that jihad shyt and may be fanning the flames. Just seems weird that a minority group that just gained power would try to face off with damn near the whole country. It's just sad to have to see the C.A.R. have to rely on their former masters to clean this mess up, although I'm pretty sure France had something to do with all this instability at some point.

 

[mbewane]

So religion wasn't an issue until some Muslims made it an issue, figures

I try to stay away from what kind of sounds like anti-muslim rhetoric, but in our case this is actually correct imo. But i'd again like to stress that Muslims have never been "an issue" before these Seleka guys (that include a LOT of Chadians and Sudanese rebels, mercenaries and child soldiers) came in with their own vision. This is also partially an invasion.

How much of the instability if any is due to the Libyan fallout and weapons proliferation. I have seen Chad being mentioned as a base for some of these militants.

Not to be dismissed, even though I haven't heard any direct link. But it's obvious that Khaddafi had an influence in CAR (he sent some troops and jet fighters in 2003 I believe) and also in Chad. Him not being there anymore def plays a role. And yes, everything I read points to massive arm proliferation around the Sahel, and CAR is a stonesthrow from that area.

 

[theworldismine13]

I try to stay away from what kind of sounds like anti-muslim rhetoric, but in our case this is actually correct imo. But i'd again like to stress that Muslims have never been "an issue" before these Seleka guys (that include a LOT of Chadians and Sudanese rebels, mercenaries and child soldiers) came in with their own vision. This is also partially an invasion.

yeah, we dont want to say mean things about muslims, the mods might put this thread in the "mean things about muslims" thread

 

[mbewane]

I gotchu, but it still seems strange. Unless the Christians oppressed the Muslims which it doesn't seem like I don't see the reason for this. Their backers could be more on that jihad shyt and may be fanning the flames. Just seems weird that a minority group that just gained power would try to face off with damn near the whole country. It's just sad to have to see the C.A.R. have to rely on their former masters to clean this mess up, although I'm pretty sure France had something to do with all this instability at some point.

Yeah I understand, hell it's strange for us Centralafricans.

The thing is that these Seleka guys say the country for what it is: weak and up for grabs. Backed by powerful Chad, it was nothing to overthrow Bozizé. Our army was non-existent (mostly Bozizé's own fault).

As I said, most of the world is catching up to this now, but the Seleka took power in March, and have been active at least like 6 months before. It's not like they took power and started executing the whole country, that's not it at all. There were lootings, killings etc but not soem widespread "anti-Christian" killings. A lot of those (and others) happened, but is wasn't on some hutu-tutsi shyt. The most recent battles emerge from the fact that the makeshift "anti-balaka" groups (mostly villagers and farmers trying to protect themselves) have seemingly received support from soldiers and generals of our (former) regular army who have remained loyal to Bozizé. That's how and why they attacked Bangui last week. It was kind of accelerated by the fact that the UN-backed French intervention was on its way: some Seleka started fleeing Bangui, but not without looting/killing, and "anti-balaka" moved in to secure their spots. And probably thinking that France would back them.

As I said before, France was asked to intervene by CAR, the UN and the AU. Somebody had to move in, and no one else was willing to do so. We've been waiting for more african forces for nearly a year now, still aren't there. OF course France has its own interests (lile every country), but if Africa was able to take care of itself we wouldn't need them. The South African army was in CAR until the March coup,they couldn't handle it and left the country.

 

[mbewane]

yeah, we dont want to say mean things about muslims, the mods might put this thread in the "mean things about muslims" thread

I'm just trying to avoid the generalizations that are leading to mayhem and death in my country breh

 

[theworldismine13]

I'm just trying to avoid the generalizations that are leading to mayhem and death in my country breh

lol, it was a dig at the mods and muslims on HL not at you

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

Unfortunately most of the world is catching up with this conflict just now, but it's really just the latest (and biggest) outburst of violence in many years. No, it's not originally over religion. Here's the deal: There are about 80 % christians in CAR, and 10 % muslims. Over the 60+ years of political chaos/poverty/whatever you want to call it in CAR, religion has NEVER, repeat, NEVER been an issue. It wasn't an issue as early as two years ago. We've had countless coup d'états, rebellions etc but it has NEVER been along religious lines. Granted, you've always had tensions in the North over land but the country is big enough (think France+Belgium) and underpopulated (4.5 mil) so that there's enough space for everybody.

What changed? Seleka the makeshift conglomerate of rebels, mercenaries, etc. who took power in March. It just so happens that the majority of Seleka are muslims, including Chadians and Sudanese people who don't even speak any local language. It also just so happens that when they were marching on Bangui they were pillaging, killing and raping nearly everyone, EXCEPT Muslims. So obviously at some point other centralafricans understood what was going on. Add to that that they were starting to impose bans on pork for example and stuff like that, and you understand where the religious aspect of the conflict comes from. It's not "right" to say that the "anti-balaka" groups are "Christians", they're originally just random people who wanted to protect their villages from assaillants. It's not like it's some of organized christian aarmy or whatever.

To make it clear: Seleka's actions is wha led to the religious aspect of the conflict, nothing else. People didn't even care taht much about religion there, but when foreign troops come into town and use religion as a tool, people are gonna react.



I'd rather have them than...no one. Or are you one of those who are happy to see Africans die as long as no foreign power is involved?



Hardly anything. The FOMAC forces never got to full capacity, and it's even worse because there's a Chadian regiment who is HEAVILLY suspected of playing both sides, since Seleka is backed by Chad. Let's not forget that France was ASKED to intervene by the CAR, the UN and...the AU. So instead of pointing the finger at France for its intervention, let's point the finger at those doing nothing. That includes most African countries, the AU, and the US (who voted against sending UN forces there).



Thanks for quoting me, been too busy following the events there to take time to share my thoughts on this. Indeed I'm from CAR, so I'm glad to give any info you guys might be interested in.

Regarding the whole Hollande and Sarkozy thing, from what I understood it's because Hollande was flying to Bangui afterwards, and there was no reason for Sarkozy to come along there.

Thanks for informing us on the situation. Good info.

As far as religion goes, it sounds like religion obviously isn't the spark that caused the fire, but it is gasoline for it, which is often the case in sectarian internecine warfare, exhibited by Seleka being an equal opportunity killer for everyone except Muslims.

Sounds like a complete mess with no end in sight. Don't know what else to say.

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

Yeah I understand, hell it's strange for us Centralafricans.

The thing is that these Seleka guys say the country for what it is: weak and up for grabs. Backed by powerful Chad, it was nothing to overthrow Bozizé. Our army was non-existent (mostly Bozizé's own fault).

As I said, most of the world is catching up to this now, but the Seleka took power in March, and have been active at least like 6 months before. It's not like they took power and started executing the whole country, that's not it at all. There were lootings, killings etc but not soem widespread "anti-Christian" killings. A lot of those (and others) happened, but is wasn't on some hutu-tutsi shyt. The most recent battles emerge from the fact that the makeshift "anti-balaka" groups (mostly villagers and farmers trying to protect themselves) have seemingly received support from soldiers and generals of our (former) regular army who have remained loyal to Bozizé. That's how and why they attacked Bangui last week. It was kind of accelerated by the fact that the UN-backed French intervention was on its way: some Seleka started fleeing Bangui, but not without looting/killing, and "anti-balaka" moved in to secure their spots. And probably thinking that France would back them.

As I said before, France was asked to intervene by CAR, the UN and the AU. Somebody had to move in, and no one else was willing to do so. We've been waiting for more african forces for nearly a year now, still aren't there. OF course France has its own interests (lile every country), but if Africa was able to take care of itself we wouldn't need them. The South African army was in CAR until the March coup,they couldn't handle it and left the country.

Yeah, the anti-Balaka sounds more like the Bozize regime fighting through them to regain a footing in the country. The previous regimes did a great job of covering up all the missteps of underdevelopment and chronic corruption. So at this point, the capitol seems like its been more or less secured by the French. Does that simply mean the fighting moves into the CAR hinterlands in this case? Or should it be a decrease in fighting due to the Seleka being ousted?

Its still kinda confusing how this became a religious conflict. The only way I see it is if like you mentioned the outside elements from Chad and Sudan helped to not only solidify the Seleka around its common Muslim identity but radicalized them to the point that no other groups were allowed into the movement which generally began as a fight to get the equally corrupt Bozize out of office. Cuz if there's never been any religious issues until now, seems as though Seleka being majority Muslim by consequence isn't a good enough reason to spark shyt off. The Bozize side could also be in play in regards to playing the the religion angle. I dunno, just seems like a lot of outsiders manipulating the action.

 

[mbewane]

Thanks for informing us on the situation. Good info.

As far as religion goes, it sounds like religion obviously isn't the spark that caused the fire, but it is gasoline for it, which is often the case in sectarian internecine warfare, exhibited by Seleka being an equal opportunity killer for everyone except Muslims.

Sounds like a complete mess with no end in sight. Don't know what else to say.

That's how I see it too. It's really a pity because as I said, with all the bs we've been through never have their been big ethnic killings, let alone religious ones. Sad that it came to this.

Yeah, the anti-Balaka sounds more like the Bozize regime fighting through them to regain a footing in the country. The previous regimes did a great job of covering up all the missteps of underdevelopment and chronic corruption. So at this point, the capitol seems like its been more or less secured by the French. Does that simply mean the fighting moves into the CAR hinterlands in this case? Or should it be a decrease in fighting due to the Seleka being ousted?

Its still kinda confusing how this became a religious conflict. The only way I see it is if like you mentioned the outside elements from Chad and Sudan helped to not only solidify the Seleka around its common Muslim identity but radicalized them to the point that no other groups were allowed into the movement which generally began as a fight to get the equally corrupt Bozize out of office. Cuz if there's never been any religious issues until now, seems as though Seleka being majority Muslim by consequence isn't a good enough reason to spark shyt off. The Bozize side could also be in play in regards to playing the the religion angle. I dunno, just seems like a lot of outsiders manipulating the action.

Indeed, it seems quite clear that the Bozize side is using the anti-balaka movement to regain position. Is he himself backed by France? On one side, he was in France as late as October. On the other, he had pissed off EVERYBODY before falling, and that's actually why he fell in the first place (that's why he called on SA for security. SA had no idea what it was getting into).

Capital is not secure yet, because as far as I know french troops aren't really venturing into the poorest neighbourhoods yet. And fighters (from both sides) are not all just handing over their guns. Another huge and maybe unforeseen issue is that when they disarm Seleka fighters...those fighters just stay there, there's no prison or whatever. So it leads to mobs wanting to lynch them afterwards But yes fighting is supposedly happening outside the capital even though I can't find much info. Bossangoa (North West) is another hotspot, Bozize is from that region.

Indeed, there is a lot of external influence. Maybe worth mentioning is this chain of events: Bozize's presidential guard was composed of...Chadian soldiers (his coup d'état was backed by Chad). At some point the presence and influence of Chad was getting too much (probably for other regional partners) so he sends them home. Strangely enough, a couple of days later this Seleka group suddenly has enough firepower to make its way towards Bangui.