A comprehensive guide to the origin/roots of HipHop's elements (all verified facts w/ OG interviews)

[IllmaticDelta]

An often repeated myth: HipHop was diametrically opposed to Disco music/culture


This couldn't be any further from the truth. What came to be HipHop from a musical POV was 100% modeled after Disco Club culture; specifically, the black overground Disco culture. The problem is, when we hear the words "Disco" they're actually thinking of the Gay image that got pushed into mainstream when it exploded from NYC underground

Spoiler

and the general mainstream images pushed by clubs like Studio 54

Spoiler

..but HipHop is actually rooted in the black mobile jock Disco culture that the likes of Grandmaster Flowers, Pete Dj jones, Ron Plummer etc.. came from

Spoiler

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One thing people don't realize is that all of the bboy breaks that got popular in HipHop, were all played by disco DJs in both the gay mainstream and black(er) overground scenes FIRST!!. Dj Kool D touches on that here



the love of the break was pioneered by Disco dj's with 2 turntable setups

The so-called divide between Disco and HipHop wasn't a matter of music/playlist but rather one based on age difference, attire and image projected

Hollywood speak on it

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Sha Rock talking about the Disco influence

 

[Wear My Dawg's Hat]

An often repeated myth: HipHop was diametrically opposed to Disco music/culture


This couldn't be any further from the truth. What came to be HipHop from a musical POV was 100% modeled after Disco Club culture; specifically, the black overground Disco culture. The problem is, when we hear the words "Disco" they're actually thinking of the Gay image that got pushed into mainstream when it exploded from NYC underground

Noel Hankin gives a behind-the-scenes look in his new book "After Dark" about how his crew of young execs essentially created the New York City dance club scene that influenced places like Studio 54 and the Paradise Garage.

My older family members all partied at their clubs like Leviticus and Justine's.

Queens College students studied the book "After Dark: Birth of the Disco Dance Party" - Disco After Dark

Discotheques were glamorous, exciting, and colorful. While they existed as far back as the 1930s in France and Germany, they didn’t start a craze. The craze started in New York City primarily in black clubs in the early 1970s. A few Hispanic and gay clubs existed but they catered to a narrow audience and some were unlicensed. Discotheques offered an escape from the many problems in New York City: out-of-control crime, huge budget deficits, deteriorating city services, and white flight to the suburbs. Many restaurants and nightclubs struggled to stay afloat.

In 1971, a group of eight young black men who called themselves The Best of Friends (TBOF) recognized that these societal conditions represented an opportunity to create a new way to socialize in New York City. When TBOF approached several key venues and offered to bring in its following of young, black professionals, several said “Yes.” With new technology and powerful, crystal clear speakers, dancing to recorded music had never been so energizing and even euphoric. Patrons couldn’t get enough. And because of the central midtown locations of these disco venues, patrons were diverse and awareness of this new phenomenon spread quickly throughout the black community then gradually seeped out to a broader audience. The convergence of the various societal developments that enabled disco is the reason this case history is important for sociology students.

By 1973, TBOF began building their own discotheques starting with Lucifer’s in Queens, then Leviticus and Justine’s in midtown west, then Brandi’s in Brooklyn, and finally, Bogard’s in midtown east.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Noel Hankin gives a behind-the-scenes look in his new book "After Dark" about how his crew of young execs essentially created the New York City dance club scene that influenced places like Studio 54 and the Paradise Garage.

My older family members all partied at their clubs like Leviticus and Justine's.

Queens College students studied the book "After Dark: Birth of the Disco Dance Party" - Disco After Dark

Spoiler

Discotheques were glamorous, exciting, and colorful. While they existed as far back as the 1930s in France and Germany, they didn’t start a craze. The craze started in New York City primarily in black clubs in the early 1970s. A few Hispanic and gay clubs existed but they catered to a narrow audience and some were unlicensed. Discotheques offered an escape from the many problems in New York City: out-of-control crime, huge budget deficits, deteriorating city services, and white flight to the suburbs. Many restaurants and nightclubs struggled to stay afloat.

In 1971, a group of eight young black men who called themselves The Best of Friends (TBOF) recognized that these societal conditions represented an opportunity to create a new way to socialize in New York City. When TBOF approached several key venues and offered to bring in its following of young, black professionals, several said “Yes.” With new technology and powerful, crystal clear speakers, dancing to recorded music had never been so energizing and even euphoric. Patrons couldn’t get enough. And because of the central midtown locations of these disco venues, patrons were diverse and awareness of this new phenomenon spread quickly throughout the black community then gradually seeped out to a broader audience. The convergence of the various societal developments that enabled disco is the reason this case history is important for sociology students.

By 1973, TBOF began building their own discotheques starting with Lucifer’s in Queens, then Leviticus and Justine’s in midtown west, then Brandi’s in Brooklyn, and finally, Bogard’s in midtown east.

Looks interesting I just did a quick look into that book and ran across

(peep what he says his disco djs were doing with the music)

and from the soul-patrol website

When I first started Soul-Patrol, I had several essays about my experiences hanging out in NYC Discos. You might be surprised at the amount of negative feedback I got. I got complaints from people criticizing the music itself and from folks criticizing me for not talking enough about white people or gay people ar Discos. I was flabbergasted, since in my memory there were no white people, very few gay people and the music itself was stone cold funk. I began to realize that most of the folks writing to me had never been to a NYC Disco and certainly not to Lucifers, Leviticus, Justines, Brandi, Bogards. But I had no documentation to point to about those clubs,, only my own memory. This 300+ page book is that documentation.

It’s the story of how a group of young Black middle class Queens residents (The Best of Friends ) took a very simple idea (After work dance parties, specifically targeted at African American workers in mid Manhattan, with very strict dress codes and behavior codes) and created an empire of the very first Black owned clubs in Manhattan. These clubs were talked about daily on WBLS and the Black community in NYC and set the standard for nightlife starting in the late 1960’s. How do I know this? Because I used to hang in these clubs, staring in 1973.

What I learned from the book is that the whole thing was really an exercise in Black Empowerment, that as a New Yorker I m quite proud of, after having read the book.

a couple of interesting comments

Cosette(Minnesota, US)says...
I personally did not appreciate the disco era of music. The book however, may clarify why. Disco music, as all of black music...simply was Co-Opted by the dominant white status quo...this is what we- I heard....disco represented by the commercial sounds of the Bee Gees....John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever...The Music group Abba....and other commercial pop music of the time. It was not until in the course of viewing a segment of Soul Train, and Don Cornelius stating that Disco music was essentially black music...that I took another...listen.

Indeed...the funk...the house...even r&b....is evident from the initial...

Check out "disco lady" by Johnnie Taylor.... (incidentally)...the first record to acqire the designate, Platinum. The syncopation...the beat... disco...oh yes! Keeping it real...and true. I look forward to checking out the book. Document...yes and always!

this one is relevant to the thread

Baba Selah(Brooklyn, New York, US)says...
And I'm just talking about the 70's/80's.

In the 60's we had COCP, Bill Daly's in Brooklyn. COOP in Queens. We had The DOM. The Chambers Brothers held court upstairs at The Electric Circus. I was too young to have gone to The Peppermint Lounge, but I went to its later incarnation, Trudie Hellers. I went to The Cheetah on Broadway and 52. Prior to that, in the 40's and 50's...that spot was the Royal Roost, and then Birdland. The Cheetah moved to 53rd St between 8th and 9th. The 52nd Street spot became Lloyd Price's Turntable. The spot on 53rd St was previously The Palladium. As the Cheetah, Willie Feaster and The Mighty Magnificents, Featuring Skipp, Sonny and The Pace Brothers were the house band. I was too young for that Palladium, for my Latin Music I went to The Corso on 86th St in the 80's.

The first time I heard Rap was at a bar on 2nd Avenue in the East Village where DJ Hollywood held court.

Book Recommendation – After Dark: Birth of The Disco Dance Party – Soul-Patrol

 

[K.O.N.Y]

Going back to the earliest production that is distinctively "hip hop' in nature

Is marley marl the first hip hop producer? @IllmaticDelta

 

[K.O.N.Y]

so this thread was stickied and then unstickied. For what reasons?

A comprehensive guide to hip hop on a hip hop geared website

@HarlemHottie
@Supper
@Samori Toure
@Voice of Reason
@Nicole0416_646NYC
@8WON6
@Wear My Dawg's Hat
@Cadillac

Can we inquire on this

@Barnett114 @CHICAGO

I could see if it was never stickied in the first place. But it was and then wasn't for no reason

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Going back to the earliest production that is distinctively "hip hop' in nature

Is marley marl the first hip hop producer? @IllmaticDelta

Marley is the pioneer of sampler-based HipHop production; before that, HipHop on record was actually played by live studio musicians

Spoiler

 

[K.O.N.Y]

why they duck the mario question at the end @IllmaticDelta

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Spoiler

why they duck the mario question at the end @IllmaticDelta

Yeah, I wished that video was longer. I'm almost 100% positive he knew Disco King Mario through Kool Dee who ran in the same circles as Grandmaster Flowers, Pete Dj Jones and Luv Bug Starski

 

[K.O.N.Y]

To whomever. Thank you for getting this back stickied

 

[IllmaticDelta]

To whomever. Thank you for getting this back stickied

yes sir

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Was the Kool Herc party of 1973 the birth of HipHop culture or straight up myth?

Since the 1980s, this story of the so-called "start of hiphop" has taken on a mythic status but exactly how much of it is true? Were the hallmarks of what we now think of as hiphop from rappers, bboys, to 2 turntable + 2 copies of the record, djing actually being done at this party? I don't know if yall are aware of this, but Bambatta/Zulu nation said the claim of that party being the birth of the culture is straight bogus!



Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture

Herc is our brother, but when our family strays from us, we must first forgive them for mistakes, but let them know of their wrongdoings, and of course, welcome them back with open arms. We could go on forever about how many artists who are heavily a part of, or were a part of the Universal Zulu Nation, know and understand how serious this is. By no means should ANY of us attempt to change the course of history and flip it for a dollar or for accolades from an industry of Culture Vultures called “the media”, when we have known and still do know that many in the media want the false, doctored-up UN-truths, not the REAL truth. Especially when it comes to Hip-Hop. What is further disturbing is the falsehood that Kool Herc failed to respect the TRUE first ladies of Hip-Hop: ShaRock, Lisa Lee, Debbie Dee, Queen Amber. The women who were there ON THE MIC representing this Culture. Kool Herc went as far as saying his SISTER is the “first lady of Hip-Hop”. Kool Herc’s sister is also his marketing rep, and is part of promoting the falsehood that she (Cindy) is the “First Lady” of Hip-Hop. That’s NOT TRUE.

Kool Herc, aka Clive Campbell DID NOT BIRTH HIP-HOP CULTURE 40 YEARS AGO ON AUGUST 11, 1973. In fact, Kool Herc only did a Back To School JAM in the recreation room at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx. No emcees were present, no “Hip-Hop” was present (a term heavily used by LoveBug Starski and Keith Cowboy), and the Zulu Nation was already in effect. THIS is the reason for this message. Please get a pen and write this down, or go stand near the chalkboard and write this one hundred times to make SURE you remember: HIP-HOP CULTURE IS 39 YEARS OLD…ZULU NATION IS 40 YEARS OLD.

http://allhiphop.com/2013/08/20/zul...t-hip-hop-and-is-misrepresenting-the-culture/

The comment section of that article (it's gone now after they updated the website)

A couple of interesting posts from Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5, who came up in the Herc/West Side scene..

"I'm Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5 and the minister of information of the Zulu nation is a clown and so is ANYONE else if after 40 years of Hip-hop culture and agreeing that DJ Kool Herc is the father of Hip-hop so why would that have changed after 40 years? I used to be in Bronx river when the Zulu nation began and the Zulu nation began in 1977-78 and Kool Herc began in 1973 so do the math and the Zulu nation were still the Black Spades during the "Blackout" of 1977 and shortly afterwards became the Bronx river organization and then the Zulu nation and honestly the people who are considered to be forefathers of the Hip-hop culture actually changed the game by adding to it and Everyone who was truly there you knew who did what and we know who set trends or brought something to the game to change it and Bambaataa and the Zulu nation didn't change the game! Grandmaster Flash Changed the game!!!!! Kool Herc is the genesis of the game and Bambaataa added what? More beats? STOP IT!!!!!!!!"

^^It's well known Herc is before Baambatta and Flash.


Now here is his take on how rapping started...

"Dancers that did a dance called the B-boying or that danced to Boioing music came directly from Kool Herc parties. Kool Herc's emcees didn't rhyme to the beat but they said catchy phrases that were adopted by emcees who expounded on what they were doing after Herc's emcees and then when emcees heard DJ Hollywood is when they began rhyming to the beat!"

Again, confirms everything I've said the whole time. So-called "Disco Dj's" are the ones who started that syncopated rhyming (rapping) style.

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I think it's time to look further into the Herc 1973 party claim by scrutinizing the accounts of other participants who were at that party/witnessed early herc jams to see just how much of what we now identify as "HipHp culture" was going on

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Was the Kool Herc party of 1973 the birth of HipHop culture or straight up myth?

Question 1) Was this flyer doctored? The Klark K (bboy and then a dj) at the bottom is Clark Kent who Coke La Rock says wasn't at that party or even part of the crew at that time. He says most people that claimed to have been at that party are lying

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Clark Kent says he was breakdancing in Harlem and then at Dj Smokeys (west side bronx) before he even knew who Herc was!

NORIN RAD: "So you were basically breaking at Chuck Center BEFORE you met Kool Herc?"

CLARK KENT:"Before I even met Kool Herc! That's where The (N***er) Twins and I honed our skills and we would go down there with cats like Wallace Dee and Chip. These are guys from the era of like Trixie and them. We ran with a whole host of cats down there before we found out what Herc was doing what he was doing on the Westside (of the Bronx).One of the names I wanna mention though is Dancing Doug!!!Back then Chuck Center was one of the places where we encountered Dancing Doug! The premier place to do breaking became Kool Herc's parties but prior to Kool Herc's we used to go to (DJ) Smokey's parties, you know, the Twins and I. From Smokey's we caught on to Chuck Center and then from Chuck Center we caught on to what Herc was doing. And out of all the places we went, you know, we honed our skills! A lot of people have this misconception that we got our skills at Kool Herc's...by the time the Twins and I arrived at Kool Herc's we was already elite!!!! And that's why we quickly ran through whoever thought they was somebody at Kool Herc's at that time. It was only a matter of time before you got on our nerves and you kept running your mouth.. There's nothing that they were involved in that I wasn't there for and there is nothing that I was involved in that they wasn't there for. We were like triplets. Wherever you seen one you seen all three of us when it came to movin' around in Hiphop. We used to travel down to Chuck Center which is one of the places we really honed our skills at before finding out about Kool Herc and going to Kool Herc's parties. We would go to Chuck Center like every other week 'cause they had a dance contest and we used to love winning that dance contest."

Castles In The Sky

He says he didn't get down with Herc until late 1974

NORIN RAD:"How did Kool Herc find out about your DJing skills?

CLARK KENT:"Herc had already known us from dancing. In 1973 is when a lot of things took place that solidified my position as a B-Boy. But then in 1974..late 1974...in the summer..a DJ that lived on 169th street named Dutchmaster he would bring his system out into the park behind 1285 Washington Avenue and play music. One particular day....Dutchmaster and the (Ni***er) Twins were kinda close and they was starting to build a relationship with the Twins getting down with Dutchmaster and one day he just brought his system out and I asked him, "Could I play?" and he allowed me to play. The good thing was Herc was in the park that day and Herc saw that I was playing the music he actually came up and he said, "Yo Kent, let me help you out!You know, I'll show you!" Like I wanted to drop the needle to the break of "Just Begun"... 'cause remember back then there was no headphones.. he would say, "Needle further

Castles In The Sky

 

[Asicz]

@IllmaticDelta
You may want to check out this podcast episode Dad Bod Rap Podcast with guest Jeff Chang and Davey D, authors of 'Hip Hop You Don't Stop'

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...GEtOWQ4Yy0xMWViLWJkNzAtM2JkMWE0ODUyZDIy?ep=14

Jeff Chang Hip Hop writer and journalist and Davey D veteren journalist and Hip Hop Historian released again 'Hip Hop You Don't Stop' 15 years later, Young Adult edition.

Jeff Chang in multiple interviews and in his book refer to the "Hip Hip Creation Myth". In interview pieces he has stated paraphrase 'every culture has a creation Myth. They reflect people values.' Interesting term imo.


In the pod interview Davey-D is asked about new duscussions and questions in who started Hip Hop. Davey D, who advances the Kool Herc Hip Hop orgin story, says that this history is like a "cypher" in Hip Hop. People can add on and contribute more information.