A 3,300-year-old hairstyle on a preserved ancient Egyptian head

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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You know that you use a different definition than those who argue with you and that much of the disagreement stems from this misunderstanding... But you don't clear that up until much later when it would be easy for you to do right away.
I've cleared that up multiple times to the SAME people in this thread, so, no.

Their misunderstanding is not my problem.​
 

Asante

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I've cleared that up multiple times to the SAME people in this thread, so, no.

Their misunderstanding is not my problem.​
You’re an intellectual coward. You’re only willing to debate with people who know little to nothing about Kemet.
 

MischievousMonkey

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I've cleared that up multiple times to the SAME people in this thread, so, no.

Their misunderstanding is not my problem.​
Of course it's not your problem. You do whatever you want.

But by taking advantage of the unspoken until clarifying what you think is too late to change the course of the discussion, you bear part of the responsibility for the conversation running into walls. It takes two to tango.

Most of the arguing that happened could have ended right after @K.O.N.Y assessed that many Berbers would be considered black and at other points too. But like I said, you do whatever you want.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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Of course it's not your problem. You do whatever you want.

But by taking advantage of the unspoken
No one "took advantage of the unspoken".

The cats arguing have seen me post the SAME information several times prior to this thread.

They even admit it.

Hell, that's how YOU recall it.​
 

MischievousMonkey

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No one "took advantage of the unspoken".

The cats arguing have seen me post the SAME information several times prior to this thread.

They even admit it.

Hell, that's how YOU recall it.​
What do you mean by "that's how you recall it"?
I'm not aware of or remember the content of y'all previous discussions nor did I understand your position on the topic before this thread, so I'm only referring to this one. Only other thing I had to go off of was that I remember you using a peculiar definition of black in another context, when you were saying that subsaharan Africans were not black, so the potential semantic dissonance appeared clear to me.

If you're saying that you previously explained yourself on what you mean by black and the rest of your position to all the folks you're going back and forth with here, then fair enough, have at it.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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What do you mean by "that's how you recall it"?

If you're saying that you previously explained yourself on what you mean by black and the rest of your position to all the folks you're going back and forth with here, then fair enough, have at it.
That's EXACTLY what I mean.

I explained it to YOU and you remember it. The rest are just playing stupid games.​
 

LuuqMaan

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So the whole back and forth is happening because you don’t consider them ‘black’ by the modern Western definition?
 

invalid

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Evidence shows they were North African BEFORE Roman conquest. Let's suppose however, that isn't the case. Suppose Ancient Egypt was 99% Sub-Saharan Nubian, for instance. Why is that no longer the case? You're talking about foreign invaders displacing several tens of millions of people with NO evidence of such migration, and they never took it back.

I think, using our modern day racial categories, that the Egyptians were a mixed-race people.

If you’re using “North African” to mean Berber, I have a hard time with accepting that they were of mostly Berber roots because, not even looking at DNA, if we were to look at their genealogies, which have been well recorded, we can see that this is not the case.

I can give you an example -

The 19th dynasty (The Ramessids) was founded by Ramesses I.

Before he was crowned Ramesses I, his name was Paremessu.

Originally called Pa-ra-mes-su, Ramesses I was of non-royal birth, being born into a noble military family from the Nile Delta region, perhaps near the former Hyksos capital of Avaris. He was a son of a troop commander called Seti. His uncle Khaemwaset, an army officer, married Tamwadjesy, the matron of the Harem of Amun, who was a relative of Huy, the viceroy of Kush, an important state post.[4]

It says that Paramessu’s father was named Seti or Shuta (according to the Amarna letters) and that Seti’s brother was Khaemwaset.

We know that Khaemwaset was Nubian.

Khaemwaset was an important ancient Egyptian under king Tutankhamun. His main titles were troop commander of Kush and fan-bearer on the Right Side of the King. As troop commander of Kush he was in charge of the military forces in Nubia (Kush is the Egyptian word for Nubia) at the end of the 18th Dynasty. He is known from a statue found at Kawa, that shows him together with his wife Taemwadjsy.

Khaemwaset’s wife was Taemwadjsy who was described as a relative of Amenhotep Huy, the Viceroy of Kush.

Amenhotep called Huy was Viceroy of Kush under Tutankhamen. He was the successor of Tuthmosis, who served under Akhenaten. He would later be succeeded by Paser I.[1

Who were the Viceroys of Kush?

The former Kingdom of Kerma in Nubia, was a province of ancient Egypt from the 16th century BCE to eleventh century BCE. During this period, the polity was ruled by a viceroy who reported directly to the Egyptian Pharaoh. It is believed that the Egyptian 25th Dynasty were descendants of these viceroys, and so were the dynasties that ruled independent Kush until the fourth century CE.

The descendants of the Viceroys ascended to the 25th Dynasty of Egypt.

The Twenty-fifth Dynasty of Egypt (notated Dynasty XXV, alternatively 25th Dynasty or Dynasty 25), also known as the Nubian Dynasty, the Kushyte Empire, the Black Pharaohs,[2][3] or the Napatans after their capital Napata,[4] was the last dynasty of the Third Intermediate Period of Egypt that occurred after the Nubian invasion.

So Taemwadjsy was Nubian, being related to the Nubian viceroy, who married Khaemwaset, who was Nubian, who was the brother of Seti (Shuta) who we can surmise was undoubtedly Nubian being the brother of Khaemwaset.

And Seti was the father of Paremessu (Ramesses I) the founder of the 19th Dynasty.

Ramesses I was the grandfather of Ramesses II.

But Egyptologist will claim that Ramesses II did not have any sub-Saharan blood because his mummy had apparently red hair. And so his reconstructions appear as such..

rameses-ii-facial-reconstruction.jpg


It says that Paramessu’s family were nobles from the Nile Delta, which means his Nubian derived family were in Lower Egypt at the time and not in Upper Egypt closer to the Nubian borders.

I just have a hard time believing the native population was primary “North African” without any substantial sub-Saharan genetic influence when you have a clearly Nubian derived family, who were nobility, living in lower Egypt (not upper Egypt), who eventually ascended to the throne before the 25th dynasty. There had to be a substantial sub-Saharan genetic population in Egypt for that to happen, at least to me.

Taemwadjsy also had connections to Yuya and Thuyu, who were the parents of Queen Tiye, the mother of Akhenaten, and grandmother of Tutankhamen, so they even had an immediate genetic connection to Nubia.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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So the whole back and forth is happening because you don’t consider them ‘black’ by the modern Western definition?
2 Black or less commonly black

a: of or relating to any of various population groups of especially African ancestry often considered as having dark pigmentation of the skin but in fact having a wide range of skin colors Black Americans

NOTE: Capitalization of Black in this use is now widely established.

b: of or relating to Black people and often especially to African American people or their culture Black literature a Black college Black pride Black studies
NOTE: Capitalization of Black in this use is now widely established.

Every human being on the planet is Black by 'modern Western definition'......UNLESS you restrict it to particular groups of people.​
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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I think, using our modern day racial categories, that the Egyptians were a mixed-race people.

If you’re using “North African” to mean Berber, I have a hard time with accepting that they were of mostly Berber roots because, not even looking at DNA, if we were to look at their genealogies, which have been well recorded, we can see that this is not the case.
Appreciate the info, but that isn't what I meant. I used the Berbers as an example of an indigenous North African people with roots in the Middle East.​
 

invalid

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@Dafunkdoc_Unlimited
Also to your point about skin color being symbolic, I agree.

This is a depiction of Amenhotep Huy before Tutankhamen. There is no notable difference between their skin color. But we know Amenhotep Huy was the Viceroy of Kush and thus Nubian.

Lepsius_tut.JPG
 

invalid

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Appreciate the info, but that isn't what I meant. I used the Berbers as an example of an indigenous North African people with roots in the Middle East.​

Ok, I thought you we’re painting the Egyptians as being Berber/from the same stock as Berber since you said the sub-Saharan genetic admixture increased after Roman rule.

I know that’s what the genetic studies say. To me, it just doesn’t pan out if you actually take a look, at least, at some of the royal genealogies.

North Africans are genetically distinct from Sub-Saharan Africans. They share some ancestry due to Ice Age migration, but they are more closely related to Middle Eastern and European populations. The amount of Sub-Saharan genetic admixture increased AFTER Roman rule of Egypt.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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@Dafunkdoc_Unlimited
Also to your point about skin color being symbolic, I agree.

This is a depiction of Amenhotep Huy before Tutankhamen. There is no notable difference between their skin color. But we know Amenhotep Huy was the Viceroy of Kush and thus Nubian.

Lepsius_tut.JPG
There's another one, can't remember the name, but he was depicted as Egyptian in one Pharaoh's tomb, but in his own he was depicted as Nubian.​
 

Ozymandeas

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Now this is pure nonsense. You still haven't answered what the different skin tones are symbolic of.
Ancient Egyptians painted their southern neighbors in a darker skin tone compared to themselves (which actually makes sense) but it's all "symbolic" when they portray themselves.

IMO, the most nonsensical answer is that Egyptians were mixed between Nubians and Middle Eastern groups.

This makes the most sense based on its geographical location, based on the variety of skintones depicted, etc.

Would've resembled modern-day Brazil with some being light/whiter toned, some being mixed/brown, some being dark/black.

In the beginning, I believe they were closer to fully black. Not because I want them to be. But because of Nabta Playa and the Green Sahara. There was a whole African civilization in what's now desert that dried up 10,000 years ago which forced people to leave for other water sources like the Nile and the Niger. This group would have had to have been mostly Black African. It takes a large leap in logic to assume Arabians came all the way down to Chad/Niger/Southern Libya instead of Africans on the same continent walking up as it was a tropical area then. Not desert. They left when it dried up, went East to the Nile which starts in Ethiopia, then slowly moved up to Sudan and later Egypt. This lines up with Egyptians calling Ethiopia their ancestral land. Lines up with alot of the culture, dress, hair styles and religious beliefs being similar between Egyptians/Sudanese/Ethiopians. Then you add in Nubia/Sudan being a territory of Egypt for 800 years (2000 BC to 1700 BC, then 1500 BC to 1000 BC) then later on switching roles during the 25th Dynasty with Nubia controlling Egypt....which shows they had a long complicated relationship that Egypt didn't have with any groups up north in Asia. There's just too many links between Egypt and its EA neighbors. So yea, I think Egypt started off "blacker" which explains the connection between all the Nile Valley groups but, IMO, my theory is that over time, migration from the south slowed while migration from the north increased along with military conquests from other nations led to the black component in Egypt being either bred out or displaced throughout Africa. So that mixed and black nation started looking mixed and white.
 

Ozymandeas

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Which evidence ? That 2017 study based on 3 mummies ? lol and what is north african in this context ?

Egypt has always been a crossroads for black African and middle eastern peoples. It was never pure black or pure middle eastern. The populations that lived in the south during the predynastic and dynastic period were more "black" which is common sense given its proximity to the African interior. The oldest cemetary in ancient egypt is jebel sahaba which is in the southern part of egypt and the remains morphologically match other black africans. But the population in the north has always been more middle eastern in origin.

And the desertification of the sahara desert would have cut off migration from the african interior where as no natural barrier prevented access from the middle east into egypt which is why it has gotten lighter over such a long period.

Exactly.
 
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