2020 Democratic Primary Thread: Focus on House & Senate races

[Berniewood Hogan]

He is at his core too. An acquaintance got arrested there and they shipped him to some private prison gulag in the midwest. I hold Bernie Sanders personally accountable for the hell he lived through. That's the Bernie Sanders I know. He preys on people by telling them what they want to hear, he is a politician with few accomplishments other than self promotion.

 

[JoogJoint]

most ados go to pwi’s it’s over 75%

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[JoogJoint]

Everybody's worried about Bootydo doing well in Iowa and New Hampshire in the polls, but he'll fizzle out in the South.

 

[Warren Moon]

What does that have to do with anything?

just agreeing with ur post. Hbcu funding specifically doesn’t help all ados

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

after Pete faking black support, I'm not sure I can trust these polls

 

[King Kreole]

But that's like your opinion, man. The progressive world will continue to disagree with you and it's not arguing bad faith, adopting right wing arguments, or being blinded by Bernie adulation.




Bernie Sanders and the whole progressive left did not morph into crypto-Republicans overnight. This is very bizarre take you've been pushing. What's more peculiar is you ended your piece by talking about how Liz head tax will "incentivize wages increases" after you just finished accused progressives of using right wing talking points. So her head tax will take the tax burden off of businesses and that will trickle down to higher wages for workers in the "knowledge economy"? But we're using talking points from the Heritage Foundation? Ok, buddy.

Much of what Bernie said here is in line with what I have been said. He's laying out the same argument for a payroll tax over a head tax that I laid out. The head tax of $9500 would make the cost of hiring low-wage workers (those making $30-40K in his example) relatively higher than the cost of hiring a high-income worker, potentially having a negative impact on creating those low-wage jobs. That's exactly what I have said. Where he gets...confused...is when he says it will also have the impact of negatively impacting wage increases for those workers once they're hired. It's just the opposite. Under a flat tax, there is no difference in costs to the business depending on where someone is on the pay scale. Under a progressive payroll tax, the more a worker makes, the higher the cost for the business. Bernie is again confused in that second paragraph. The <$29K exemption is for his 4% flat income tax proposal, not his progressive payroll tax proposal. Workers don't pay the progressive payroll tax, companies do. But then again, he hasn't actually released a financing plan yet, so we can't pin him down to anything.

My analysis of these plans doesn't rely on anything trickling down, I'm not sure where you got that from. The flat head tax structure levy a cost penalty on increasing worker's wages like a progressive payroll tax does. Here, let's look at Matt Breunig's chart:

Moving left to right (workers making more money), which line (taxes paid aka costs) goes up? Which line incentivizes staying closer to the left, and which line is ambivalent to movement to the right? I'll help. With the blue line, the more my worker makes, the higher my costs/taxes are as a company, so I'm going to try and depress my workers' pay to reduce my tax burden. Under the red line, it makes no difference whether my worker goes from $65K to $115K, I pay the same amount, my tax burden is the same.

Not true. You said that. I initially said the exact same thing I'm saying now: that jobs will outsource and contract away to avoid head taxes and for other cost-cutting reasons. It's common sense and I thought was universally understood. You kept harping on the 50 head trigger, but I didn't realize into the end of the conversation that you didn't understand that under Liz' plan, contractors are exempt from the head tax. So my mistake was engaging with you on the 50 count trigger front when I shouldn't have allowed you to divert the conversation into that non-issue. I was being bombarded with so many strange and specious arguments from you that I allowed myself to get sidetracked on an irrelevant tangent you took me on for so long. My apologies.

As I've said a million times now, our current healthcare system exempts contractors from the head tax, the exact same argument you're making were made by pro-corporate forces trying to shut down government expanded healthcare when Obamacare was being created, and there is no evidence that Obamacare caused a massive increase in independent contracting. It's chicken little. Jobs were being outsourced away and costs were being cut far before the Obamacare head tax was instituted. Employee misclassification is a very real phenomenon, but it is one much deeper and longer than the recent efforts to expand government-provided healthcare, so we shouldn't be crafting M4A with the intention of solving it. It needs to be solved in the labor rights arena, which is where both Liz and Bernie have placed it.

I never backtracked. You have lost any semblance of arguing in good faith and are resorting to strawmen like "a payroll tax isn't going to solve the problem of contracting." Nobody is suggesting that any healthcare plan will solve the problem of contracting, nor is anyone saying that the implementation of a head tax will be the one root cause of a tsunami of contracting. We're saying that contracting can and does occur for both cost savings or a legal buffer when something goes wrong (injuries, lawsuits), and the head tax of $9500 or what have you that can and will be easily avoided by many employers through that means. Since under her plan, contractors don't have to pay a head tax every time an employer swabs out labor with a contractor, that $9500 in revenue is lost, and this will probably lead to a death spiral of higher head taxes and increasing head tax avoidance, making it unworkable. You saying that contracting is already happening without the head tax only solidifies this point. Based on the last conversation it seems you didn't know that Liz plan exempts contractors from the head tax, hence why you missed the entire crux of the critique.

Also your claim that labor reorganization through outsourcing and contracting is too costly and cumbersome just proves to me that you don't really know how businesses work at all, not to mention you're contradicting yourself because you just finished talking about how omnipresent it is the modern workforce. Do you know how easy it is replace workers with contractors? Oh, but Liz favors labor protections. So let's add labor reform to the list of massive legislative successes that are need to make her plan workable along with immigration reform, IRS reform, a public option passing, THEN her M4A.

Ok I'm going to try this again very slowly and simply. Widespread employee misclassification was not exponentially exacerbated by the introduction of the Obamacare head tax, so there is no reason to believe it will all of a sudden be triggered by the continuation of that exact same scheme minus 2% in costs. It is an economy-wide problem, which is why Liz and Bernie plan to fight it in the labor rights arena. Under her labor plan, it would be illegal for an employer to swab out labor with a contractor in these situations, ergo, no death spiral. Your new line is that it's a bad thing to have plans that work in synchrony because...it's too difficult. I disagree.

 

[King Kreole]

I think these healthcare discussions should maybe be moved to the M4A thread.

 

[King Kreole]

At 1:26:00 and for the next like 20+ minutes, Sam Seder calls out Jamie for ruthlessly attacking Warren's healthcare plans and discusses the reality of ANYTHING changing and how to address and frame the discussion around Medicare for All ...and Seder supports Sanders for president!

This was damning.




@wire28 @Th3G3ntleman @ezrathegreat @Jello Biafra @humble forever @Darth Nubian @Dameon Farrow @Piff Perkins @BigMoneyGrip @Lucky_Lefty @johnedwarduado @Armchair Militant @panopticon @88m3 @Tres Leches @ADevilYouKhow @dtownreppin214 @A.R.$

Beautiful. This is how you support Sanders over Warren. Loved watching Seder slap down his dumbass little twerpy co-hosts spouting twitter slogans.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

Beautiful. This is how you support Sanders over Warren. Loved watching Seder slap down his dumbass little twerpy co-hosts spouting twitter slogans.

bruh peep part 2 at 1:50:00

Sam had to go into Daddy mode one time... these crummy little dirt-bag left neophytes need some perspective instead of trying to pretend they're the smartest in the room.

 

[Dat Migo]

Sit out elections brehs. Vote third party brehs. I hope these judges reign hell on these mfers.

 

[dtownreppin214]

after Pete faking black support, I'm not sure I can trust these polls

It will be interesting to see what kind of reception he gets from that ATL crowd tomorrow.

 

[A.R.$]

It's happening people

 

[Berniewood Hogan]

wow, look at these polls!

 

[the next guy]

He is at his core too. An acquaintance got arrested there and they shipped him to some private prison gulag in the midwest. I hold Bernie Sanders personally accountable for the hell he lived through. That's the Bernie Sanders I know. He preys on people by telling them what they want to hear, he is a politician with few accomplishments other than self promotion.

Breh you keep doing this yet Peter is going to sneak through here. come on. Pete and Biden are worse here imo

 

[88m3]

Breh you keep doing this yet Peter is going to sneak through here. come on. Pete and Biden are worse here imo

Go ahead and yuk it up with your white Bernie Bro friends, Brah. My Breh was in a private prison for ten years and Bernie Sanders is a coward. That's all there is to it.

I hate those other two those scumbags just as much. Bernie's hands are covered in Black blood.


Miss me with the "woke" Bernie bs.