1990s NBA teams vs Current teams.

[LV Koopa]

I dont know if hindsight is 20/20 or whatever but I'm surprised by how long it took teams to figure out how valuable stretch 4s are. If you have a good PG and a big guy that can make plays inside, all you have to so is put 3 shooters around them that can guard their position.
I promise you it is NOT a coincidence Robert Horry won all those chips

Gotta speak on this a bit.

You had guys like Del Harris playing stretch 4s more than 20 years ago. Hell, even when Dirk first came into the league he was slotted as a SF and they instantly knew there was a problem with him playing as a conventional big or as a typical wing. KG was a midrange monster by his 3rd year and there was real talk that he should have been shooting 3s. Of course he was under shyt management that was dumb, but KG did not want to play inside early on because he felt he could dominate with his guard skills (and he was right).

The biggest reason this didn't happen for them nor for earlier years? The rules. You didn't need a stretch big "that" much because illegal defense rules allowed a team to accomplish the same thing. Put a big at the 3 pt line and he has to be defended whether he can shoot or not. Let your post up man isolate for free all day one on one with no hope of a double coming that can work. Aside from the 94-96 years with the shortened 3pt line, teams didn't need a stretch 4 as much primarily because of the rules. Lack of dominant shooting bigs outside of the typical Perkins, Horry, Dirk, Schrempfs was amplified by the lack of coaches able to take advantage of the few of them in the league.

 

[sportscribe]

Your entire post fell apart in the first line


In 1994-1995 the Houston Rockets led the league in 3 point attempts, their total made 3s increased by 200+ threes from the previous year. Why? Because the 3 point line was moved in to 22 feet all around, which put a huge emphasis on supporting post players with 3 point shots. Yall just go with the tried and true talking points.

You say the Sonics would give teams run today, yet they lost in the first round to an offensively challenged team that could defend and hit the 3

What the 94-95 Rockets did then has no bearing on what teams are doing today. They made 429 three that season. By today's standards, that's only more than the T-Wolves and Grizzlies.The reason they were able to get so many looks was the post presence of Hakeem. They played to the relative strengths of their players. They had more of an inside-out game, with Hakeem being the fulcrum. This is in stark contrast to a Warriors team for instance that is guard dominated and uses multiple screens to find the open shooter. Hakeem was still able to get his 28 pts/game that season as he was still the Rockets' go-to guy. The league then was dominated by efficient low post scorers; league leaders in PPG in the season that you're referring to were Robinson, O'Neal, Olajuwon, Wilkins, Malone. Compare that with today's game where Westbrook and Harden were the league's best scorers, followed by LeBron, Davis and Cousins. Guess what? Each of Robinson, O'Neal, Olajuwon, Wilkins and Malone had their teams in the top 5 of their conferences that season. That is what you call dominance. Contrast that with Davis who barely made the playoffs and Cousins and Westbrook who didn't make the playoffs at all. Regardless of how you want to skew stats to support your argument, even with the 94-95 Rockets, we are still talking efficient, low post scoring from an all-time great center. Hakeem at the end of the day still attempted more field goals than any other player in the league that season.....

Is there even a need to address that Sonics point? We are talking about a series where Shawn Kemp was shooting below 40% in FG. They lost to an offensively challenged Nuggets team that still had the 5th best defense in the league that season. They didn't lose because the Nuggets were shooting threes. They lost because the Sonics and Kemp ran into Mount Mutombo and his 6 blocks a game.

 

[sportscribe]

Mutombo shut Kemp down with the ruthlessness

 

[Malta]

What the 94-95 Rockets did then has no bearing on what teams are doing today. They made 429 three that season. By today's standards, that's only more than the T-Wolves and Grizzlies.The reason they were able to get so many looks was the post presence of Hakeem. They played to the relative strengths of their players. They had more of an inside-out game, with Hakeem being the fulcrum. This is in stark contrast to a Warriors team for instance that is guard dominated and uses multiple screens to find the open shooter. Hakeem was still able to get his 28 pts/game that season as he was still the Rockets' go-to guy. The league then was dominated by efficient low post scorers; league leaders in PPG in the season that you're referring to were Robinson, O'Neal, Olajuwon, Wilkins, Malone. Compare that with today's game where Westbrook and Harden were the league's best scorers, followed by LeBron, Davis and Cousins. Guess what? Each of Robinson, O'Neal, Olajuwon, Wilkins and Malone had their teams in the top 5 of their conferences that season. That is what you call dominance. Contrast that with Davis who barely made the playoffs and Cousins and Westbrook who didn't make the playoffs at all. Regardless of how you want to skew stats to support your argument, even with the 94-95 Rockets, we are still talking efficient, low post scoring from an all-time great center. Hakeem at the end of the day still attempted more field goals than any other player in the league that season.....

Is there even a need to address that Sonics point? We are talking about a series where Shawn Kemp was shooting below 40% in FG. They lost to an offensively challenged Nuggets team that still had the 5th best defense in the league that season. They didn't lose because the Nuggets were shooting threes. They lost because the Sonics and Kemp ran into Mount Mutombo and his 6 blocks a game.

Yet again, you killed your own point in the first sentence


The 94-95 Rockets made 646 threes, not 429 which was done the year before with the 23'9" line. By today's standards, that's only 31 less than the Spurs made this year and would have put them in 15th in the league, ie. average. They made 200 more threes than the previous year and had the best post player in the league, the short line basically encouraged them to shoot as many as possible. They exploited the shorter three point line and Hakeem's ability to post up, and fired up more threes than anyone else in the league It doesn't matter how they got the looks that has never been the point of the thread, and I even said several times that eventually a post player will come a long and a team will build around them with nothing but shooters. The point is that without three point shooting, teams from the 90s simply would not be able to compete, and I only brought up the Rockets in passing at the start of the thread because of the fact they did their most damage from 3 with the shorter line.


The Sonics outscored the Nuggets in that series, a couple more threes and they win Today a team vs that Nuggets squad would go small and pull Deke away from the rim, spread and shred. No need to worry about his offense on the other end.

 

[Malta]

Most teams today have no clue


For all this talk about 90s teams vs. today's teams. Aren't we really talking about 2 teams? San Antonio and Golden State. Small ball is more popular but its not like there's a bunch of 4s who can put the ball on the floor, shoot threes and guard athletic bigs. Outside of Draymond who else does that at a high level?

Sure teams like NY and Indiana would struggle with certain small ball schemes, but those teams didn't really have elite talent anyway. Grizzlies won 55 games, made the playoffs and lost in 6 to a 67 win team. I don't think those 90s teams would get run off the court every time out.

The biggest take away from this is that they were very few truly elite teams in the 90s.

Bulls were the best team in the 90s, given time and a few roster tweaks I think they could've adopted to small ball fairly well.

The high screen from these PG's now is extremely dangerous, because of the fact that if you try and go under it they will fire away, and if you switch on it your PG is now defending a PF who will just go into the post. You ask what PF's put the ball on the floor and not many, but plenty will immediately take a smaller player into the post when there's a switch. That 3 point shooting effects damn near every aspect on the offensive end, it is really dangerous and has essentially made a 6'3" skinny light bright dude the most unguardable player in the league.

The Bulls were the best, but their roster from 91-93 was not equipped to play small. They could put Grant at the 5, but then there's absolutely nothing they could do with their 4 man because that squad didn't have really anything after him. The point is, roster changes would need to be made, and that is the real point, almost every thread on here got somebody living in the past and saying that the Pacers/Knicks could beat the Warriors or some shyt. Like the non-elite teams from those days have any hope vs the non-elite teams today, but because they played in the 90s they are given a bonus.


And nobody has been able to say how a team that takes 10 threes a game and makes 3 could hang with one that takes 28 and makes 12.

 

[manyfaces]

The next evolution in the position may be Karl Towns, post player with a 3 pointer that can also defend.

Aka Rasheed Wallace, when he wanted to take his ass in the post.

 

[Malta]

Neither did Jordan but they both had the mid range game. If Mahmoud's mid range game was average and he shot sub .400 then I would agree with you. Who's to say he couldn't improve his 3pt % if played during this era where the 3 is a big focus. He never would of made it in the league in that era if he couldn't shoot.

Him raining 8 threes on Stockton would be damn near a regular ocurrence if he played today. Dude came into the NBA in the worst era for him.

Let's look at the genius of Mahmoud.









"Oh Neeeele Chris Jackson's on fire" - Keith Jackson

He wasn't Jordan though he was a 6'1" small guard that couldn't hit the 3, not a 6'6" athletic dude that could get to the rim almost any time he wanted.


Damn breh, I never knew Mahmoud had fans out chea like this, you got all his games on deck. I salute your loyalty

 

[Malta]

Aka Rasheed Wallace, when he wanted to take his ass in the post.

Karl has the chance to do it a high level, Sheed was a good post player but a horrific 3 point shooter


I think Towns could end up with a mean post game, and a really high percentage on his 3. Brow could also become that as well, needs the post game, and I assume the 3 is maybe a year or two away for him.

 

[Jplaya2023]

With pippens versatility he could play the 4 in stretches if need be. Phil is stuborn so he wouldn't ve adjusting his line ups to match the other team. He could trot out

Grant
Pippen
King (weak link)
Jordan
Paxon or bj

For stretches that team could manage on the floor and athletic enough to hang with teams

Jordan would have space to operate more

 

[Malta]

schrempf averaged 6 APG one season. he was definitely a playmaker tho. as far as his D is concerned, if you could win with dirk and diaw as your starting 4's, you could win with schrempf, as long as you have a defensive anchor behind him(chandler, duncan), which he had in kemp.

and neither bron or draymond are shooting well this postseason, especially bron.

Nah, none of these teams have flat out horrible defensive PF's though, maybe Love but the Cavs defense looks better without him. I don't think Schrempf would be able to defend the small ball 4 guys, and I wouldn't want him checking someone like Blake either.

Dirk is 7 feet tall, he's easy to hide, has played PF his entire career and most importantly the Mavs ran a zone that year.

 

[Slystallion]

Walt with his smart dumb shyt get the fukk outta here

 

[Malta]

With pippens versatility he could play the 4 in stretches if need be. Phil is stuborn so he wouldn't ve adjusting his line ups to match the other team. He could trot out

Grant
Pippen
King (weak link)
Jordan
Paxon or bj

For stretches that team could manage on the floor and athletic enough to hang with teams

Jordan would have space to operate more

"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box

4 guys, none of them proficient three point shooters in 1 lineup together, going against teams with zone principles that will shoot 30 threes and be happy with making 10

 

[Walt]

Walt with his smart dumb shyt get the fukk outta here

Cats still don't know the difference between me and Malta? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[sportscribe]

Yet again, you killed your own point in the first sentence


The 94-95 Rockets made 646 threes, not 429 which was done the year before with the 23'9" line. By today's standards, that's only 31 less than the Spurs made this year and would have put them in 15th in the league, ie. average. They made 200 more threes than the previous year and had the best post player in the league, the short line basically encouraged them to shoot as many as possible. They exploited the shorter three point line and Hakeem's ability to post up, and fired up more threes than anyone else in the league It doesn't matter how they got the looks that has never been the point of the thread, and I even said several times that eventually a post player will come a long and a team will build around them with nothing but shooters. The point is that without three point shooting, teams from the 90s simply would not be able to compete, and I only brought up the Rockets in passing at the start of the thread because of the fact they did their most damage from 3 with the shorter line.


The Sonics outscored the Nuggets in that series, a couple more threes and they win Today a team vs that Nuggets squad would go small and pull Deke away from the rim, spread and shred. No need to worry about his offense on the other end.

What is the relevance of continually bringing up the shortened three point line? If the three point was shortened in today's game, then you would see the top three-point shooting teams today easily make over 1000 threes. Long distance shooting has improved in the today's NBA, I think that has been established. Even PFs have range now, and I have mentioned this in a previous post. What is lacking (and it is very much a relevant point here) is efficient low-post scoring. If you have a player like Shaq on your team that is going to give you 30 points a game at near 60% shooting, the need to shoot as many threes becomes greatly reduced. I have given you an example already of a championship Spurs team that was bottom in the league in three pointers made, but won due to their elite post play and stellar team defense.

As for your second point, I'm pretty sure SVG built the very team you're describing around D12. Howard had nothing but shooters around him; Lewis, Turkoglu, Redikk, Nelson, Pietrus, Lee . They got to an NBA Finals, but all those threes couldn't help them when they were faced with the superior post play of the Lakers. Are you spotting the trend yet?

 

[LV Koopa]

Stop acting like the 80s and 90s was filled with a murderers row of low post dominance. The biggest reason low post play was so important was because of the rule set and secondarily the relative lack of ball handling at the guard spot. Even a terrible team with bad scorers at the high or low post would be stupid not to take advantage of it.

As for your second point, I'm pretty sure SVG built the very team you're describing around D12. Howard had nothing but shooters around him; Lewis, Turkoglu, Redikk, Nelson, Pietrus, Lee . They got to an NBA Finals, but all those threes couldn't help them when they were faced with the superior post play of the Lakers. Are you spotting the trend yet?

Pau's defense on Dwight was the biggest reason LA dominated them. Dude went from shooting 60%+ with a team ORTG in the 110s to trash. They beat the Celtics because of Garnett being injured, and their shooters didn't really just die in the Finals. Dwight got neutered, and SVG played broke down Jameer instead of letting Rafer stay hot.