☑︎#VoteDemocrat

The Original
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State your evidence, breh. Tell me how France relies on the US military while we have our own brands for military artillery, vehicles, aircraft and weaponry (Famas, Dassault, Nexter, Eurocopter...) :beli:
Tell me who France used to provide infrastructure for their short campaign against islamists in Northern Mali :sas2:
 

Liu Kang

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Tell me who France used to provide infrastructure for their short campaign against islamists in Northern Mali :sas2:
Of course there was logistic support from the US but there was also from the UK, the UN, the AU, Russia, different European and African countries... As in every type of wars nowadays, no western country goes to war alone. Even the US.
"Relying" as you said it implied dependence which there wasn't. The French also assists the US when they can but that doesn't mean that the US relies on us.
 

Luke Cage

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i thought it was funny how she complained about people being obese and then complained about the standards of beauty.
:sas1:
 

RTF

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Radical Muslims are a problem everywhere breh :lolbron:


How much is significant ? Because you have a very definite view about how well we are doing here and I'd really want to know why you came up with that idea.
Spent 3 summers there as a kid. Although most of my info is from my dad who would tell me things. The France thing is equality: no Kings, everyone is equal. As such they don't even track things such as race or religion. But from what i've seen: it doesn't look like that. Paris is a pretty dirty city in general but some of the black-dominated estates looked absolutely 3rd world. I know it's anecdotal experience but I didn't see as many black people in suits, smart/casual business wear as I did in London.

Paris is more ethnically diverse than London so I guess there are larger communities out in the suburbs and further. But it seems a more segregated city than London. I only knew Africans out there but they all seemed to identify much more with their homelands than France, I don't think there's that belonging in France for Africans. Black people in England are more likely to be c00ns but that's partly because I believe it's a more welcoming country for foreigners.

A 22 year old Nigerian man will move to London.. grab himself a white wife and be singing God Save the Queen in 10 years STAT. The breh is British now in his head. I Senegalese brother is less likely to be like that. One of the reasons is that from what I've seen black people are less integrated.

The last time I was there Algeria or similar played France in Paris - people boo'd the French national anthem. That would never happen if England played another colony at home. I think it's happened since.

Feel free to explain why you think I might be wrong. It's just my opinion.
 

StretfordRed

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Everywhere is good, no where is the best.

We have an American at our work, who has never travelled outside of the US before and I think it has opened his eyes. But I still think that Europeans have a better grasp on culture than Americans.

As someone who has been to the Americas a lot, I notice you guys don't do that much international travelling, as it seems you have a lot to do in the US/Canada alone. But as Europeans, if we take a plane for 1-7 hours we can be in Russia, Paris, Amalfi Coast, Milan, Porto, etc. Just based on that, I will take the European life and culture 10 times out of 10. But that is not to say a large amount of European culture is based on US culture and vice versa. I just think I could survive strictly on European culture for most of the time
 

Liu Kang

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Spent 3 summers there as a kid. Although most of my info is from my dad who would tell me things. The France thing is equality: no Kings, everyone is equal. As such they don't even track things such as race or religion. But from what i've seen: it doesn't look like that. Paris is a pretty dirty city in general but some of the black-dominated estates looked absolutely 3rd world. I know it's anecdotal experience but I didn't see as many black people in suits, smart/casual business wear as I did in London.

Paris is more ethnically diverse than London so I guess there are larger communities out in the suburbs and further. But it seems a more segregated city than London. I only knew Africans out there but they all seemed to identify much more with their homelands than France, I don't think there's that belonging in France for Africans. Black people in England are more likely to be c00ns but that's partly because I believe it's a more welcoming country for foreigners.

A 22 year old Nigerian man will move to London.. grab himself a white wife and be singing God Save the Queen in 10 years STAT. The breh is British now in his head. I Senegalese brother is less likely to be like that. One of the reasons is that from what I've seen black people are less integrated.

The last time I was there Algeria or similar played France in Paris - people boo'd the French national anthem. That would never happen if England played another colony at home. I think it's happened since.

Feel free to explain why you think I might be wrong. It's just my opinion.
I'm not saying you're wrong because it's your opinion as you stated it but I think things are a little more diverse that what you saw or witnessed.

First, you're right about the following :
- Sons of immigrants (mostly from African descent, whether Northern or sub-Saharan) have difficulty to "assimilate" as French because of the country having difficulties to accept them but also because they tend to strongly represent their homeland ("le bled"). It's a common reaction that sons of immigrants (born here) do. But it's not only from Africans, people from Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Belgian, West Indian, or other east european descent do it also. If you look at cars, you will often see stickers from their homeland : the Portuguese Order of Christ symbol, some flags or some words in Créole or other european countries.
But it's also because France has many regionalisms : by that I mean, there are region swith strong identity in which a good amount of their inhabitants will identify as is more than as French. Corsicans, Britons, Northeners, Alsacians, Basques, Catalans are some of the ones who also identify by their region more than the country. What the sons of immigrant do is nothing more than what regionalists do, the different being that what their identify with is a foreign country or a french island.

- The Anthem has been boo'd at international events by french from northern african descent. In Football matches, it happened in a France-Morocco a decade back, in a France-Tunisia a few years back. But it was also boo'd by Serbians a few years back and by Belgian people last year. It's not unusual for the anthem to be boo'd unfortunately.
France has troubled relations with Maghrebis (and Africa in general) because of the Colonization and how it was reluctant to give freedom to those people and the country now pays the price because the sons and daughters of those people are still mad at it, considering how badly the country treated their parents. Parents that never really had problems themselves and was kinda satisfied of their situation but the sons felt like they were not welcomed and it was bound to happen since the lyonese Marche des Beurs (The Arabs March) in the early 90s demanding for more equality. I don't know about the UK and how you dealt with the Colonization how you still have the commonwealth but it looks it was done peacefully. Unless we're talking about Argentina :mjpls:

What struck me in you post is that you were talking about "colonies" as if those other commonwealth countries are still dependencies. Maybe that's the difference between you and us, as France decolonized (violently for a good part) those countries and that cause the bound to be torn if not broken for some and maybe that's why the relation seems bizarre for you.

But speaking of football matches, I remember in 2006 during the World cup, I was at a stadium with a few thousands of people during France-Brazil when we beat em 1-0 and even if those brehs had African countries flag with them, they all erupted in joy when Henry scored. I was at France-Portugal for the semi and the french brehs from Portuguese descent were rotting for Portugal and were mad that they lost while the brehs from African descent were for France and were happy they won. Same with the French from Italian descent supporting Italy during the final and shytting on us when we lost.
I feel like they feel french to some extent but not totally above all when their (supposed) homeland is in the mix. They will always support their homeland if France meets it but will support France otherwise above all when it meets a rival country of their homeland. It's a troubled relation from both sides really.


But, where I think, you're mistaken is about Black people being the bottom of the ladder : yes there are rough areas where crime and unemployment is high and yes people there are mostly immigrants or from a foreign (african mostly) ancestry but that definitely doesn't mean that all people from African descent are in poor situations. You take Paris as an example but at the same time Paris is and is not France. It is as it's the capital which gathers everything and problems are way more but it is not as other parts of the country are really different. I don't know which part of Paris you visited but the Northern and Eastern districts are the least favoured and it is, historically, like that. So if you resided there, your view on the issue is understandable.

If you want to see black people in suits, go to the Parisian business district in La Défense (the equivalent of the Londoner City), you'll see plenty. It's about where you look. Obviously, in poor areas, it will less be the case.
Here's pic of people eating at lunch time on the steps of the Arch (I worked there in a summer jobs a few years back, and I had a suit... most of the time :lolbron:)

Les_marches_de_Grande_Arche.jpg


It's mostly white (France is) but you don't need a minute to find a Black, an Asian, or an Arab, they are here. It may not be as diverse as in the City business district but it still is.
The french motto is "liberté, égalité, fraternité" (liberty, equality, fraternity) but it's a motto, that doesn't mean it's effectively the case... Do all Americans put their trust in God ? France is still a mostly white country and integrating people from different culture, with different language, with a different ethnicity takes times, generations. People from Polish, Spanish or Italian immigration were hated in the late 1800s / early 1900s because they were different (and they were white !) and were taking jobs from the very french. Now those polish, spanish are french and you couldn't tell their ancestry if they hadn't a foreign sounding names.

So you gotta let the next immigration wave takes place and settle because we are progressing : the Justice ministress (one of the five biggest ministries) is black, the Overseas ministries is black, the European Affairs state secretary is also black. In the government, there are 6 out of 30 heads who are non-white. That's 20%, and I can assure you out of 65M, there are no 13.5M non-white french : in 2004, France was to be 87% white.
 

RTF

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I'm not saying you're wrong because it's your opinion as you stated it but I think things are a little more diverse that what you saw or witnessed.

First, you're right about the following :
- Sons of immigrants (mostly from African descent, whether Northern or sub-Saharan) have difficulty to "assimilate" as French because of the country having difficulties to accept them but also because they tend to strongly represent their homeland ("le bled"). It's a common reaction that sons of immigrants (born here) do. But it's not only from Africans, people from Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Belgian, West Indian, or other east european descent do it also. If you look at cars, you will often see stickers from their homeland : the Portuguese Order of Christ symbol, some flags or some words in Créole or other european countries.
But it's also because France has many regionalisms : by that I mean, there are region swith strong identity in which a good amount of their inhabitants will identify as is more than as French. Corsicans, Britons, Northeners, Alsacians, Basques, Catalans are some of the ones who also identify by their region more than the country. What the sons of immigrant do is nothing more than what regionalists do, the different being that what their identify with is a foreign country or a french island.

- The Anthem has been boo'd at international events by french from northern african descent. In Football matches, it happened in a France-Morocco a decade back, in a France-Tunisia a few years back. But it was also boo'd by Serbians a few years back and by Belgian people last year. It's not unusual for the anthem to be boo'd unfortunately.
France has troubled relations with Maghrebis (and Africa in general) because of the Colonization and how it was reluctant to give freedom to those people and the country now pays the price because the sons and daughters of those people are still mad at it, considering how badly the country treated their parents. Parents that never really had problems themselves and was kinda satisfied of their situation but the sons felt like they were not welcomed and it was bound to happen since the lyonese Marche des Beurs (The Arabs March) in the early 90s demanding for more equality. I don't know about the UK and how you dealt with the Colonization how you still have the commonwealth but it looks it was done peacefully. Unless we're talking about Argentina :mjpls:

What struck me in you post is that you were talking about "colonies" as if those other commonwealth countries are still dependencies. Maybe that's the difference between you and us, as France decolonized (violently for a good part) those countries and that cause the bound to be torn if not broken for some and maybe that's why the relation seems bizarre for you.

But speaking of football matches, I remember in 2006 during the World cup, I was at a stadium with a few thousands of people during France-Brazil when we beat em 1-0 and even if those brehs had African countries flag with them, they all erupted in joy when Henry scored. I was at France-Portugal for the semi and the french brehs from Portuguese descent were rotting for Portugal and were mad that they lost while the brehs from African descent were for France and were happy they won. Same with the French from Italian descent supporting Italy during the final and shytting on us when we lost.
I feel like they feel french to some extent but not totally above all when their (supposed) homeland is in the mix. They will always support their homeland if France meets it but will support France otherwise above all when it meets a rival country of their homeland. It's a troubled relation from both sides really.


But, where I think, you're mistaken is about Black people being the bottom of the ladder : yes there are rough areas where crime and unemployment is high and yes people there are mostly immigrants or from a foreign (african mostly) ancestry but that definitely doesn't mean that all people from African descent are in poor situations. You take Paris as an example but at the same time Paris is and is not France. It is as it's the capital which gathers everything and problems are way more but it is not as other parts of the country are really different. I don't know which part of Paris you visited but the Northern and Eastern districts are the least favoured and it is, historically, like that. So if you resided there, your view on the issue is understandable.

If you want to see black people in suits, go to the Parisian business district in La Défense (the equivalent of the Londoner City), you'll see plenty. It's about where you look. Obviously, in poor areas, it will less be the case.
Here's pic of people eating at lunch time on the steps of the Arch (I worked there in a summer jobs a few years back, and I had a suit... most of the time :lolbron:)

Les_marches_de_Grande_Arche.jpg


It's mostly white (France is) but you don't need a minute to find a Black, an Asian, or an Arab, they are here. It may not be as diverse as in the City business district but it still is.
The french motto is "liberté, égalité, fraternité" (liberty, equality, fraternity) but it's a motto, that doesn't mean it's effectively the case... Do all Americans put their trust in God ? France is still a mostly white country and integrating people from different culture, with different language, with a different ethnicity takes times, generations. People from Polish, Spanish or Italian immigration were hated in the late 1800s / early 1900s because they were different (and they were white !) and were taking jobs from the very french. Now those polish, spanish are french and you couldn't tell their ancestry if they hadn't a foreign sounding names.

So you gotta let the next immigration wave takes place and settle because we are progressing : the Justice ministress (one of the five biggest ministries) is black, the Overseas ministries is black, the European Affairs state secretary is also black. In the government, there are 6 out of 30 heads who are non-white. That's 20%, and I can assure you out of 65M, there are no 13.5M non-white french : in 2004, France was to be 87% white.

1. Regions: The UK is like that too. To the point Scotland might leave the UK and northern English people think the UK is too dominated by London/the South (the North & Scotland vote drastically different to the south), so I wouldn't say that's a primary reason for the divisiveness. My point is: black people in the UK rep London, Manchester or Birmingham super tough. Tougher than wherever they're from.

2. Commonwealth/colonies - here I always thought this was perhaps the root cause. A larger number of the former French colonies are "war torn" and the way France & Belgium left is probably a large reason why.

I believe the UK has sold the dream of being British and integration much better than France. I heard about the Maghreb thing, doesn't that kinda prove my point that minorities in France really feel oppressed? There's never protests of that type in the UK. When there are protests its social classes. But on the flip side - like I said before British black people are more likely to be c00ns so perhaps they/we take the shyt in silence. I'm not an expert on French people but they also seem more rude/upfront than British people. British people are very "politically correct". Many of the most racist people would never be caught talking racist shyt.

I remember that "race quota" thing the French FA had. The shyt is just wild.

3. I'm not saying they don't feel French at all.. just not to the extent blacks in Britain do. It's the "beef" aspect that's troubling when those countries play France.

4. Fair do's but one question: there's no official stats on race in France are there? The blacks as Ministers is :salute: worthy. I never knew that. There's none in the UK that I am aware of.


Now reading my posts in this thread you may think i'm saying it's brilliant for blacks in the UK. I'm certainly not. It's an institutionally racist country. In general, black people don't do as well as white people by some distance. However, relations in general are positive. The people aren't as racist as American cac's but that' historical.
 
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