Ya'll Ever Wondered "What if Nat Turners Revolt Succeeded"?

[Bawon Samedi]

Edit: I'm not unfamiliar with Haitian history (thanks to Avengers of the New World), but I wouldn't pretend to know everything- at all. I have a lot of respect for what Haitians did. I think we all do. So calm the fukk down, and lets build.

Here's what Wiki says about Yellow Fever's role in the Haitian Revolutions:

"It has recently been estimated that the slave rebellion resulted in the death of 350,000 Haitians and 50,000 European troops.[92] According to the Encyclopedia of African American Politics, "Between 1791 and independence in 1804 nearly 200,000 blacks died, as did thousands of mulattoes and as many as 100,000 French and British soldiers."[93] Yellow fever did most of the killing. Geggus points out that at least 3 out of every 5 British troops sent there in 1791–97 died of disease.[94][95] There has been considerable debate over whether the number of deaths caused by disease was exaggerated.[96]"

External debt of Haiti - Wikipedia

[96] Leads to a few book called The Slaves Who Defeated Napoleon. In it the author Leclerc gives varying accounts of his troop totals and losses for various reasons like asking France for more men or just hiding military defeats/losses. This author cites hospital records that show 60% of the French soldiers there in spring 1802 were wounded. He goes on to conclude, however, that that year 43% died of yellow fever, 8% died of other diseases, and 14% died in combat.

I've never read this book, or even heard of it. It's got like 6 reviews on Amazon. Still, that's one estimate.

It seems like I've stepped on some sort of landmine. I had no idea this was a controversial topic, but I'm always down to learn. All that being said, everything I've read says Yellow Fever was critical to defeating French forces. That's not a knock. As far as I'm concerned, god sent those mosquitoes.

Your own source even states that there are doubts that Yellow Fever played a large role further proving my point.

 

[Starman]

Your own source even states that there are doubts that Yellow Fever played a large role further proving my point.

Of course there are doubts, that's why we're discussing it. Do you have any evidence to introduce?

 

[Jammer22]

This is a tl(timeline) on haiti over at AH.com.
It does use the yellow fever narrative, so fair warning.
Beware of the Eurocentric lens of the site.
There are also only a handful of african centered timelines on the site, much less other ethnic groups. But many of the POD (points of departure from our own timeline) are interesting and well done.

Grenadye Alaso!:A Haiti TL

And below is one of the better african themed tl's on the site
Malê Rising

It's not too bad in terms of realism. Would have liked more focus on africa though. It's about a real revolt in brazil of the male ethnic group lead by a man named Paulo Abacar and their shipment back to africa where they take over the Sokoto caliphate. They proceed to change history where Africa is colonized along lines like India instead of how it was in out timeline due to a boost in power among the Sahelian polities.

"The Realm of Millions of Years": The World of an Atenist Egypt

This is one of my favorites.
It's about what would have happened if Akenaten had been successful in spreading and establishing Aten as the sole god.

Lands of Red and Gold

This tl is about a Australia that's more advanced than ours thanks to certain plants being available and the changes to world history because of it. I like it. They talk about diseases effects a lot and how it would effect the old and new world.

Lands of Ice and Mice: An Alternate History of the Thule

This one is about what would have happened if the Inuet peoples had had a more robust agricultural package.
Very interesting tl.

The Rise of the White Huns

This one is about what would have happened if the huns had taken over Persia. Huge scope and they get to Africa with some cool changes.

The Horse and The Jaguar

This one is about a mongol expedition to Java that winds up blown off course and sent to the Americas instead.

Anyway, If yall are interested check them out. The male one is the most popular one, but it spends a lot of time focusing on the global changes rather than concentrating on the Male themselves. Plus it follows families, for a more personalized touch. Guess it works better narratively.

Enjoy.

 

[ZoeGod]

A foreign entity like who in your opinion? The British?

Yeah. Andrew Jackson is anti British and relations at that times wasn't too good. So Britain would have helped. It would make America weaker and hey they could retake more territory in the North.

 

[AlainLocke]

Hard to think about with all the What ifs.. How good was the USA around the time nat turner wanted to do his shyt?

USA had a small army and navy...

The USA did not become a military power until WW1

If Haiti could sustain itself and wanted to go on a jihad against colonial powers with the help of recently free Latin American countries and maybe a colonial power like the French if the Haiti was on some...

"Yall run the USA if you do not institute slavery and help free the Blacks..."

Then there could've been a revolution with abolitionists, slaves, Latinos and the French/British...

 

[The D-List Vet]

USA had a small army and navy...

The USA did not become a military power until WW1

If Haiti could sustain itself and wanted to go on a jihad against colonial powers with the help of recently free Latin American countries and maybe a colonial power like the French if the Haiti was on some...

"Yall run the USA if you do not institute slavery and help free the Blacks..."

Then there could've been a revolution with abolitionists, slaves, Latinos and the French/British...

Why would France help the slaves that broke free from them? That just asking for trouble for all we know those cacs could get all the former slaves on a boat with their army to the USA only to trick them and kill them with the USA army/navy. To much shyt could go wrong

 

[xoxodede]

Honestly, the fukked up thing is he wouldn't have gotten too far - he would have succeed in a FEW counties - but white people were on some unity ish at that time. They would have eventually got him.

But, it was SOOO many revolts and Black people doing the same thing at that time. Nat was one of few. Gabriel's Rebellion and Denmark Vesey are the ones in addition to Nat that most people know.

The people who really were bosses back in the day were the Maroons of the U.S. The runaway communities that ranged from small to large in the South. They have become my research obsession lately. They had white people shook and most didn't dare to try to go into their communities. I think that was the key back in the day - them finding and joining/hiding in the maroon communities by state/county. Then slowly attacked each plantation and take over. It could be done - because they were in every state and county were their were enslaved. They were posted up in the woods, swamps, trees and underground.

When Nat ran away he was suppose to link up with one of the largest and most feared Maroon societies in the Dismal Swamps.

The white residents of Norfolk and other communities near the swamp were terrified of being attacked by the swamp’s maroons. Instead, they got Nat Turner’s insurrection of 1831—a rebellion of slaves and free blacks in which more than 50 whites were killed and then at least 200 blacks killed in reprisal. Turner was planning to hide in the Dismal Swamp with his followers, recruit the maroons and more slaves, and then emerge to overthrow white rule. But his rebellion was suppressed after two days, and Turner, after two months in hiding, was captured and hanged. Source: Deep in the Swamps, Archaeologists Are Finding How Fugitive Slaves Kept Their Freedom | History | Smithsonian








An ever-present feature of antebellum southern life was the existence of camps of runaway Negro slaves, often called maroons, when they all but established themselves independently on the frontier. These were seriously annoying, for they were sources of insubordination. They offered havens for fugitives, served as bases for marauding expeditions against nearby plantations and, at times, supplied the nucleus of leadership for planned uprisings.

It appears that notice of these maroon communities was taken only when they were accidentally uncovered or when their activities became so obnoxious or dangerous to the slavocracy that their destruction was felt to be necessary. Evidence of the existence of at least fifty of such communities in various places and at various times, from 1672 to 1864, has been found. The mountainous, forested or swampy regions of South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Louisiana, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi and Alabama (in order of importance) appear to have been the favorite haunts of these black Robin Hoods. At times a settled life, rather than a pugnacious and migratory one, was aimed at, as is evidenced by the fact that these maroons built homes, maintained families, raised cattle, and pursued agriculture, but this all but settled life appears to have been exceptional.

Source: https://thezamanireader.com/2015/07...dy-of-maroons-and-marronage-in-the-new-world/

Although it reached a zenith between 1760 and 1830 marronage in South Carolina was evidently something that endured for as long as slavery itself existed. Maroons were able in practice to exert control over large areas of land that were effectively beyond white control. In this manner maroons in South Carolina were able to gain a degree of autonomy and independence from slavery while never leaving the south. Some black children were born in the swamps and grew up never having known the terrors of slavery or the wrath of masters. The persistence of marronage in South Carolina significantly complicates our understanding of colonial and antebellum slave systems in North America.

Source: Runaway slave communities in South Carolina, by Tim Lockley

Types of Maroon Societies:

Sylviane Diouf of Slavery’s Exiles describes the different types of maroons that were in the United States in great detail.

Borderland Maroonage:

• Borderland maroons did not wonder off too far from where they escaped from. They made their maroon colonies close to the farms and plantations thus, their presence was known. [8]There were many reasons for staying close and risk being captured and returned to slavery, one being family connections. Escaping enslavement, but still wanting to see family members who were enslaved was crucial. Another instance would be for a slave to hover in the area of a different plantation where a spouse was sold. [9] In this case the a subcategory of maroonage called petit maroonage where slaves would runaway to see a loved ones, but eventually return.[10].

• Violence was another reason slaves would escape to the borderlands. The violence that slaves were subjected to does not need explanation, but what is important is to note that many did not accept the violence from slaveowners. Many decided to flee in the face of violence instead of submitting to the humiliation and torture of a beating.[12] The opposite was also true, many would find themselves on the borderland because they had inflected violence on a white person. Borderland maroons would also be the source of much stealing of food and tools to to ensure their survival.

Hinterland Maroonage:

• Another form of maroonage was hinterland maroonage, where the person or colony would enter deep into the woods where they could have a stronger sense of security and freedom. The hinterlands maroons unlike the borderland maroons were harder to track thus, providing mystery to the slavocracy. Usually found in communities for optimal survival, they were able to accomplish a lifestyle some would say was better than plantation life.

Some of the Known Maroon Communities: the maroons of Bas du Fleuve, Louisiana; Belleisle and Bear Creek in Georgia and South Carolina; and the Great Dismal Swamp in Virginia and North Carolina. . . .

Source: Slavery's Exiles: The Story of the American Maroons - Sylviane Anna Diouf

In 1802, in North Carolina copies of letters said to be written by conspirators, were sent to the governor. These conspirators were have said to live in a group in the swaps and even had poor whites joining them.[7] The slavocracy was shook to the core, not only were blacks and whites working together, but blacks were literate. May 15th 1823, the New York Evening Post ran a story called “A Serious Subject”. The article outlined the plans of maroons who looked to find guns and ammunition for either protection of revenge.

 

[xoxodede]

You should follow my guy Haki Kweli Shakur on IG, he posts a lot about maroon settlements and New Afrikan resistance throughout history.

I think that they probably would have linked up with the Great Dismal Swamp maroons, but I'm not sure where things would have gone after that. I do feel that an insurrection would've been more successful in the Deep South since there were fewer cacs, but who knows...

The bold has me daydreaming though I don't know about conquering the country, but definitely separating and gaining independence would've been on the table

I didn't even read your response! We are on the same page. Linking up with the Maroons would have been something.