Why Russell Westbrook's 2016 season is better than Oscar Robertson's Triple-Double season *insider*

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This cac trying to tell me 2+2=7 with that cac math i mean analytics.:stopitslime:

Oscar Robertson is a legend. Westbrook is a beast. We can appreciate both.

Again, for the nikkas thats trying to discredit Oscar, Wilt, and any of the old legends. Yall nikkas couldnt put those those numbers up against the top 8th graders in the country.
 

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@Skooby can you post this story for us breh?:ohhh:

Not even Big O can compare to the season Russell Westbrook is having
play


Tom Haberstroh puts context to Oscar Robertson's 1961-62 season where he averaged a triple-double and makes a case for Russell Westbrook having a superior season this year. (1:38)

12:52 PM ET
  • i

    Tom HaberstrohESPN Staff Writer
While you were watching Stephen Curry all year, over here in the other corner is Russell Westbrook becoming a fire-breathing triple-double machine.

On Monday, he notched his 16th triple double of the season, tallying 26 points, 12 assists and 11 rebounds in the Thunder's 119-100 victory over the Toronto Raptors. With two more, Westbrook will break the 3-point era record for triple-doubles in a season (17, set by Magic Johnson in 1988-89).

Even then, Westbrook won't match Oscar Robertson's 1961-62 feat, in which the Big O averaged a triple double for an entire season. In the New York Times, Robertson wrote about the 50th anniversary of the wild 1961-62 season that included Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game and his 50.4 point scoring average.

"Chamberlain's records will probably never be broken," he wrote. "Nor will my triple-double average that season (30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds and 11.4 assists for the Cincinnati Royals)."

Robertson might be right, but not for the reason you might suspect.

Watching a basketball game from 1961-62 is like observing an entirely different sport. The games were televised in black-and-white. There was no 3-point line.

There were nine NBA teams, led by the 60-win Boston Celtics and trailed by the 18-62 Chicago Packers. Not only the league was smaller; the players were too. That season, Chamberlain was one of three 7-footers in the entire NBA. Today, the rosters of Charlotte, Dallas, Orlando and Utah each feature a trio of 7-footers.

The league was different back then. It was so different and so conducive to eye-popping statistics that it makes what Westbrook is doing today even more impressive than what Robertson did.

Don't believe me? Let's count the ways.

Reason No. 1: Teams basically played five quarters of basketball in 1961-62
The most alien of all characteristics of 1960s NBA, compared to today's game, was the ludicrous speed of play that warped per game numbers. Rather than run plays that required multiple actions and sophisticated off-ball movement, games in the 1960s were often marked by a rushed, back-and-forth, first-shot-take-it edict. As a result, the numbers in the box scores were mind-boggling.

Because the league didn't track offensive rebounds or turnovers, we don't have precise measurements of pace factor, which is defined as the number of possessions per 48 minutes, for the 1961-62 season. However, some clues give us a ballpark figure of how insanely rapid the game was back then.


Can Giannis or Westbrook average a triple-double?
Giannis Antetokounmpo and Russell Westbrook are on crazy triple-double runs. Is it too crazy to think they can average a triple-double for a full season? Kevin Pelton looks at their chances.

Consider: the average NBA team in 1961-62 shot 107.7 field goal attempts per game, which is 23.5 more than today's norm of 84.2. To put that in perspective, the high-octane Golden State Warriors' season high for field goal attempts in a game this season is 107, and that was average in the 1961-62 season. What's more, to get to 107 field goal attempts, the Warriors needed not one but two overtimes.

The Thunder, a team that averages 86.4 field goal attempts per game, have shot more than 100 field goal attempts just once this season, and as with the Warriors, that happened in a double-overtime game. Looking at the pace, it's as if teams in the early '60s played five quarters instead of four.

Oscar Robertson had an incredible season in 1961-62, but playing in that era helped stuff the stat sheet. AP Photo/Hans Von Nolde
Reason No. 2: Rebounds were everywhere back then
Faster play equals more opportunities to pump up statistics. But one other critical factor needs to be considered when translating statistics from that era: There were a gazillion missed shots.

The average team shot 42.6 percent from the floor, and only two players -- Chamberlain and rookie Walt Bellamy -- shot better than 50 percent in 1961-62. In today's NBA, the average team shoots 45.2 percent, and 99 players have made more than half their attempts.

Granted, there are about four times as many players in the league today, but the point remains: Rebounds were everywhere in 1961-62. Not only were the games faster, but there was also a higher proportion of available boards.

This inflationary effect came up on Feb. 2, 2013, when Kevin Love, then playing for the Minnesota Timberwolves, tweeted:

The funny thing is Love didn't have to imagine it. He did grab within 20 of that number on Nov. 12, 2010, when he pulled down 31 rebounds against the New York Knicks. After seeing his tweet, I replied to Love to remind him that the fast-pace era of the 1960s inflated rebounding numbers.

There were around 130 misses and available boards in a typical game then, compared to about 90 in today's game.

Love began to see the math.

One thing to note: Love played 41 minutes in that 2010 game. That brings us to the next reason Westbrook is outrageous.

Oscar Robertson posted his crazy stat lines while playing way more minutes than Westbrook. AP Images/Sue Ogrocki
Reason No. 3: Westbrook is sitting out a quarter every game
It'd be one thing if Westbrook were playing more minutes and notching more triple-doubles by simply getting more run on the floor. But Westbrook is averaging only 34.6 minutes per game, which is in line with his career average of 34.1. He's just improving what he's doing in those 34 minutes.

In fact, none of Westbrook's triple-doubles this season came in a game in which he played 40 or more minutes.

We don't have game-by-game logs for Robertson, but to put it in perspective, of Magic Johnson's 17 triple-double games in 1988-89 (the most in a season in the modern era), 12 crossed the 40-minute plateau. Again, Westbrook has needed zero such games.

Let's write this whole line out: Westbrook is averaging 23.7 points, 10.5 assists and 7.7 rebounds in just 34.6 minutes per game this season for a team that wields a pace factor of 96.8 possessions, according to Basketball-Reference.com's pace formula, which slightly differs in scale from the NBA's version.

If we control for pace and playing time, Westbrook is averaging 34.1 points, 15.0 assists and 11.1 rebounds per 100 possessions on the floor.

How does that compare to Robertson? In 1961-62, Robertson averaged 30.8 points, 11.4 assists and 12.5 rebounds in 44.3 minutes per game for a team that wielded an estimated pace factor of 124.9. (Remember, that 124.9 is a ballpark figure, given the incomplete box score, but it's based in real data). It's as if Babe Ruth set the homerun record during an era that played 12 innings rather than nine.

If we translate Robertson's numbers to a per-100-possession scale, as we did for Westbrook, we find that he has lower but still remarkable numbers across the board: 26.7 points, 9.9 assists and 10.8 rebounds.

Oscar vs. Russ
Player Season PTS AST REB
Westbrook
(per game) 2015-16 23.7 10.5 7.7
Robertson (per game) 1961-62 30.8 11.4 12.5
Westbrook (per 100*) 2015-16 34.1 15.0 11.1
Robertson (per 100*) 1961-62 26.7 9.9 10.8
*Controlling for minutes played and pace
As you can see, once we adjust for the era, Westbrook has the statistical edge.

This is not to discredit Robertson and his unprecedented accomplishments. He shouldn't have to apologize for the era in which he played, nor should he be excluded from consideration as one of the best ever.

The Big O was a transcendent basketball player who broke barriers on and off the court and changed the league for the better. Also, let's not pretend playing 44.3 minutes a night is a walk in the park -- no matter how talent-starved the league was back then.

But when we put Westbrook's season and his triple doubles under the microscope, we realize how remarkable it is that he's doing what he's doing in a bigger league with a fraction of the possessions and playing time. If we give Russ the same stats boost that Oscar had, Westbrook's season looks like this: 39.3 points, 17.3 assists and 12.8 rebounds per game.

Robertson's fame is built on his triple-double stats, and we might not see those exact counting numbers in the NBA again. But that's because of environment and opportunity as much as ability. If we take a closer look at what Westbrook's numbers really mean, it's pretty clear that he's the real statistical monster.
 

Newzz

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Not even Big O can compare to the season Russell Westbrook is having
play


Tom Haberstroh puts context to Oscar Robertson's 1961-62 season where he averaged a triple-double and makes a case for Russell Westbrook having a superior season this year. (1:38)

12:52 PM ET
  • i

    Tom HaberstrohESPN Staff Writer
While you were watching Stephen Curry all year, over here in the other corner is Russell Westbrook becoming a fire-breathing triple-double machine.

On Monday, he notched his 16th triple double of the season, tallying 26 points, 12 assists and 11 rebounds in the Thunder's 119-100 victory over the Toronto Raptors. With two more, Westbrook will break the 3-point era record for triple-doubles in a season (17, set by Magic Johnson in 1988-89).

Even then, Westbrook won't match Oscar Robertson's 1961-62 feat, in which the Big O averaged a triple double for an entire season. In the New York Times, Robertson wrote about the 50th anniversary of the wild 1961-62 season that included Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point game and his 50.4 point scoring average.

"Chamberlain's records will probably never be broken," he wrote. "Nor will my triple-double average that season (30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds and 11.4 assists for the Cincinnati Royals)."

Robertson might be right, but not for the reason you might suspect.

Watching a basketball game from 1961-62 is like observing an entirely different sport. The games were televised in black-and-white. There was no 3-point line.

There were nine NBA teams, led by the 60-win Boston Celtics and trailed by the 18-62 Chicago Packers. Not only the league was smaller; the players were too. That season, Chamberlain was one of three 7-footers in the entire NBA. Today, the rosters of Charlotte, Dallas, Orlando and Utah each feature a trio of 7-footers.

The league was different back then. It was so different and so conducive to eye-popping statistics that it makes what Westbrook is doing today even more impressive than what Robertson did.

Don't believe me? Let's count the ways.

Reason No. 1: Teams basically played five quarters of basketball in 1961-62
The most alien of all characteristics of 1960s NBA, compared to today's game, was the ludicrous speed of play that warped per game numbers. Rather than run plays that required multiple actions and sophisticated off-ball movement, games in the 1960s were often marked by a rushed, back-and-forth, first-shot-take-it edict. As a result, the numbers in the box scores were mind-boggling.

Because the league didn't track offensive rebounds or turnovers, we don't have precise measurements of pace factor, which is defined as the number of possessions per 48 minutes, for the 1961-62 season. However, some clues give us a ballpark figure of how insanely rapid the game was back then.


Can Giannis or Westbrook average a triple-double?
Giannis Antetokounmpo and Russell Westbrook are on crazy triple-double runs. Is it too crazy to think they can average a triple-double for a full season? Kevin Pelton looks at their chances.

Consider: the average NBA team in 1961-62 shot 107.7 field goal attempts per game, which is 23.5 more than today's norm of 84.2. To put that in perspective, the high-octane Golden State Warriors' season high for field goal attempts in a game this season is 107, and that was average in the 1961-62 season. What's more, to get to 107 field goal attempts, the Warriors needed not one but two overtimes.

The Thunder, a team that averages 86.4 field goal attempts per game, have shot more than 100 field goal attempts just once this season, and as with the Warriors, that happened in a double-overtime game. Looking at the pace, it's as if teams in the early '60s played five quarters instead of four.

Oscar Robertson had an incredible season in 1961-62, but playing in that era helped stuff the stat sheet. AP Photo/Hans Von Nolde
Reason No. 2: Rebounds were everywhere back then
Faster play equals more opportunities to pump up statistics. But one other critical factor needs to be considered when translating statistics from that era: There were a gazillion missed shots.

The average team shot 42.6 percent from the floor, and only two players -- Chamberlain and rookie Walt Bellamy -- shot better than 50 percent in 1961-62. In today's NBA, the average team shoots 45.2 percent, and 99 players have made more than half their attempts.

Granted, there are about four times as many players in the league today, but the point remains: Rebounds were everywhere in 1961-62. Not only were the games faster, but there was also a higher proportion of available boards.

This inflationary effect came up on Feb. 2, 2013, when Kevin Love, then playing for the Minnesota Timberwolves, tweeted:

The funny thing is Love didn't have to imagine it. He did grab within 20 of that number on Nov. 12, 2010, when he pulled down 31 rebounds against the New York Knicks. After seeing his tweet, I replied to Love to remind him that the fast-pace era of the 1960s inflated rebounding numbers.

There were around 130 misses and available boards in a typical game then, compared to about 90 in today's game.

Love began to see the math.

One thing to note: Love played 41 minutes in that 2010 game. That brings us to the next reason Westbrook is outrageous.

Oscar Robertson posted his crazy stat lines while playing way more minutes than Westbrook. AP Images/Sue Ogrocki
Reason No. 3: Westbrook is sitting out a quarter every game
It'd be one thing if Westbrook were playing more minutes and notching more triple-doubles by simply getting more run on the floor. But Westbrook is averaging only 34.6 minutes per game, which is in line with his career average of 34.1. He's just improving what he's doing in those 34 minutes.

In fact, none of Westbrook's triple-doubles this season came in a game in which he played 40 or more minutes.

We don't have game-by-game logs for Robertson, but to put it in perspective, of Magic Johnson's 17 triple-double games in 1988-89 (the most in a season in the modern era), 12 crossed the 40-minute plateau. Again, Westbrook has needed zero such games.

Let's write this whole line out: Westbrook is averaging 23.7 points, 10.5 assists and 7.7 rebounds in just 34.6 minutes per game this season for a team that wields a pace factor of 96.8 possessions, according to Basketball-Reference.com's pace formula, which slightly differs in scale from the NBA's version.

If we control for pace and playing time, Westbrook is averaging 34.1 points, 15.0 assists and 11.1 rebounds per 100 possessions on the floor.

How does that compare to Robertson? In 1961-62, Robertson averaged 30.8 points, 11.4 assists and 12.5 rebounds in 44.3 minutes per game for a team that wielded an estimated pace factor of 124.9. (Remember, that 124.9 is a ballpark figure, given the incomplete box score, but it's based in real data). It's as if Babe Ruth set the homerun record during an era that played 12 innings rather than nine.

If we translate Robertson's numbers to a per-100-possession scale, as we did for Westbrook, we find that he has lower but still remarkable numbers across the board: 26.7 points, 9.9 assists and 10.8 rebounds.

Oscar vs. Russ
Player Season PTS AST REB
Westbrook
(per game) 2015-16 23.7 10.5 7.7
Robertson (per game) 1961-62 30.8 11.4 12.5
Westbrook (per 100*) 2015-16 34.1 15.0 11.1
Robertson (per 100*) 1961-62 26.7 9.9 10.8
*Controlling for minutes played and pace
As you can see, once we adjust for the era, Westbrook has the statistical edge.

This is not to discredit Robertson and his unprecedented accomplishments. He shouldn't have to apologize for the era in which he played, nor should he be excluded from consideration as one of the best ever.

The Big O was a transcendent basketball player who broke barriers on and off the court and changed the league for the better. Also, let's not pretend playing 44.3 minutes a night is a walk in the park -- no matter how talent-starved the league was back then.

But when we put Westbrook's season and his triple doubles under the microscope, we realize how remarkable it is that he's doing what he's doing in a bigger league with a fraction of the possessions and playing time. If we give Russ the same stats boost that Oscar had, Westbrook's season looks like this: 39.3 points, 17.3 assists and 12.8 rebounds per game.

Robertson's fame is built on his triple-double stats, and we might not see those exact counting numbers in the NBA again. But that's because of environment and opportunity as much as ability. If we take a closer look at what Westbrook's numbers really mean, it's pretty clear that he's the real statistical monster.

Thanks breh:salute:
 

Rekkapryde

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And Oscar tries to pretend that Lebron couldn't average a 50-20-20 and Steph wouldn't just toy with those fools for sport.

And the Big O today would not be an "enhanced" version of the 60s/70s version of himself?

Same shyt.

These "journlists" always on that bullshyt trying to shyt on legends (esp black ones) for clicks.
 

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And the Big O today would not be an "enhanced" version of the 60s/70s version of himself?

Same shyt.

These "journlists" always on that bullshyt trying to shyt on legends (esp black ones) for clicks.

But why would an "enhanced" version automatically be as good as today's best?

You can't tell me those pudgy White dudes in the photo are just waiting to flip into Paul Pierce and Deron Williams, if they only got a bit better training.



Oscar Robertson was one of the best in an era when a few million people were competing to play, and most of them not very hard. Most White people didn't care about ball, most Black people were shut out entirely, and there was no one overseas at all.

Lebron and Curry are the best in an era where the number of people competing to play is bordering on a billion, and a lot of them start trying very, very hard from a very early age.

Sure, it's "possible" that the best ballers in Arkansas will be better than the best ballers in New York. But if you're a betting man, you know that betting on the gigantic pool to produce the top talent is a much, much better bet.


When the pool is a hundred times larger.
When people start playing earlier and with more discipline.
When a far larger % of the population actually sees college/pro basketball as a real hope for getting ahead in life.
When every aspect of training and strategy is that much better and taken that much more seriously.

The competition is just going to be that much better.
 

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These types of articles are tantamount to speaking ill of a dead man when he can't defend himself.

Can't we just acknowledge Russ' great season without comparing it to Big O's? If Big O can't lace 'em up and respond vs. the same opponents Russ is facing, and if we can't place Russ in a time machine so he can face Oscar's competition, then who the hell cares how the seasons of 2 players from vastly different generations compares? It's an all time great season that'll shine in the books for decades for Russ, but there's just no way to compare it to Oscar's and come to some "oh it's better fo sho" conclusion.

It's like saying Brady's all time best season is better than Montana's and totally eschewing the fact that they played in virtually 2 different leagues and against totally different opponents. It becomes silly radio hot-air talk.
You're totally right and I agree with you but this is not only media but sports media. Everyone is pitted against one another, rhetorics are repeated countless times all for the sake of keeping our attention and generating funds.
 

str8up

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I don't give a shyt about all the comparisons but that would be funny as hell tho to put Steph, Sabo or someone back in that era and watch what happens :russ:

shyt would look like Trunks going back in time and fukking dudes up like they ain't shyt
 

Megadeus

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But why would an "enhanced" version automatically be as good as today's best?

You can't tell me those pudgy White dudes in the photo are just waiting to flip into Paul Pierce and Deron Williams, if they only got a bit better training.



Oscar Robertson was one of the best in an era when a few million people were competing to play, and most of them not very hard. Most White people didn't care about ball, most Black people were shut out entirely, and there was no one overseas at all.

Lebron and Curry are the best in an era where the number of people competing to play is bordering on a billion, and a lot of them start trying very, very hard from a very early age.

Sure, it's "possible" that the best ballers in Arkansas will be better than the best ballers in New York. But if you're a betting man, you know that betting on the gigantic pool to produce the top talent is a much, much better bet.


When the pool is a hundred times larger.
When people start playing earlier and with more discipline.
When a far larger % of the population actually sees college/pro basketball as a real hope for getting ahead in life.
When every aspect of training and strategy is that much better and taken that much more seriously.

The competition is just going to be that much better.

:stopitslime:But youre completely missing the point while unknowingly proving it at the same time. It's two COMPLETELY different eras that cannot be compared. You can't just pull up a photo from the 60's and use that as reason to why Big O is somehow inferior. All these "pudgy white dudes" in the photo who Big O played with, helped craft the game as we know it. If they didn't exist then guess what? Westbrook would be just as "trash" as they were along with the rest of the current league would be. One era lead to the other.... its not like Big O is from some parallel universe. It's history. Bron Curry, Sabo, CP3 would be NOTHING without Oscar doing what he did in these past eras.

If you sent Westbrook back to the 60's in a time machine would he wreck everyone? OBVIOUSLY. Because dudes like Big O already laid his foundation. But can you guarantee that if Westbrook was born in 1940 he would grow up to be better than Big O? Of course not, because its not possible to know, there are too many factors. You just can't compare two players from two eras that are so far apart like that homie.
 

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1960's ball was played at sky high pace...

Westbrook would average a triple double in that era. LeBron, Grant Hill, and Bird would have several triple double seasons if they played at 1962 pace.
 
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