Which form of government do you think would work best?

DEAD7

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Which form of Anarchy?
First let me say I'm not an anarchist. :whoa:

But anarcho-capitalism would give the best results in terms of freedom and economic growth. keep in my you have to hold freedom and liberty in an especially high regard to even consider this. "give me liberty or give me death" comes to mind.
Social order under any system is achieved by sacrificing liberty.


i agree people have the ability to mediate their own circumstances to a certain degree. but can an entire populous effectively mediate their circumstances on a day to day basis? im a little skeptical of our ability to do that.

i think you underestimate the amount of people who tone down their behavior because of the institution of law. there are a lot of unscrupulous savages in society breh.
I dont, its a cost vs benefit question to me. I approach it asking is the reduction in liberty worth the gain in order? I dont find it to be worth it so im against it. I dont think people are as savage as portrayed in these discussions... and to be fair, I could just think too highly of the human race lol

And anarchy doesnt mean lawless...
 

acri1

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First let me say I'm not an anarchist. :whoa:

But anarcho-capitalism would give the best results in terms of freedom and economic growth. keep in my you have to hold freedom and liberty in an especially high regard to even consider this. "give me liberty or give me death" comes to mind.
Social order under any system is achieved by sacrificing liberty.

So you aren't bothered by the massive amounts of inequality and abuse that would result from anarcho-capitalism? :leostare:

We'd basically be going back to serfdom. That economic system would inevitably lead to a tiny number of rich people reducing the middle and lower classes to basically being serfs and at their mercy. Especially without a social safety net.

Basically you'd be trading a (largely nonexistent) public menace for a dangerous private one. The idea ignores the fact that unregulated markets have a huge tendency towards monopolies and customer/worker abuse. Plus public services are sometimes more efficient than private ones (personally I wouldn't want something like a fire department to be privatized).
 

DEAD7

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So you aren't bothered by the massive amounts of inequality and abuse that would result from anarcho-capitalism? :leostare:

We'd basically be going back to serfdom. That economic system would inevitably lead to a tiny number of rich people reducing the middle and lower classes to basically being serfs and at their mercy. Especially without a social safety net.

Basically you'd be trading a (largely nonexistent) public menace for a dangerous private one. The idea ignores the fact that unregulated markets have a huge tendency towards monopolies and customer/worker abuse. Plus public services are sometimes more efficient than private ones (personally I wouldn't want something like a fire department to be privatized).
:beli: Its never been implemented. I cant factually say it would be great, anymore than you can blame it for inequality. What I can say is that the inequality we see is a product of the system, and anarchy necessarily removes that system.


:whoa: Again, I dont advocate anarchy, I'm just saying it is better than the other options listed. I wholeheartedly believe that concentrations of power ar emore dangerous than concentrations of wealth...:rudy: and no they are not the same thing.
 

OsO

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First let me say I'm not an anarchist. :whoa:

But anarcho-capitalism would give the best results in terms of freedom and economic growth. keep in my you have to hold freedom and liberty in an especially high regard to even consider this. "give me liberty or give me death" comes to mind.
Social order under any system is achieved by sacrificing liberty.



I dont, its a cost vs benefit question to me. I approach it asking is the reduction in liberty worth the gain in order? I dont find it to be worth it so im against it. I dont think people are as savage as portrayed in these discussions... and to be fair, I could just think too highly of the human race lol

And anarchy doesnt mean lawless...

you gonna have to get into specifics breh... way too many generalities in your statements.
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

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@VMR ok lets start by defining the terms.

what is the definition and/or characteristics of a successful constitutional monarchy iyo?

In the most basic sense, it is a monarchy that limits the power of the monarch through a constitution.

I can come up with more specific stuff, but I would say many propositions and referendums for the citizenry to vote on, 2 year terms, 3 term limit for congressmen/members of the parliament with votes halfway through on job satisfaction (if below a certain % they must go up for election on next slated vote (referendum etc)), 8 year term for monarch (3 term max, with satisfaction votes every 4 years), laws and stipulations for immediate deposal or another election, technocratic elements for each department/industry (panel made through appointment, who must collect votes from peers in the field to determine planning and appropriation of funds), power of the monarch to veto passed propositions/referendums if passed under a certain %, strong legal system of which the monarch can only be a tie breaking vote in Supreme Court (even number of judges), strict limits on salary/earnings of those in the gov't, no political parties, full disclosure on legislation (if something gets passed under a certain %, then it gets voted on by public as yay or nay and sent to monarch for approval if majority votes in favor) and candidates, process for quick repeal of laws and monarch can only nominate or endorse a candidate to replace him if the monarch leaves office on his own or goes through max years of reign.
 
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OsO

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one immediate concern that comes to mind with a "constitutional monarchy" is the idea of the entire state being represented in a single person. things can get complicated when that individual falls prey to death, or vacates their position for some reason, because of the vacuum of power it leaves behind and all the chaos that ensues. in addition to the negative effects the death of a leader has on the psyche of the people.

also, it doesnt seem like the leader in a constitutional monarchy has a lot of judicial power, much like the president of the US. and imo if we elect a head of state, then we should look for the wisest, smartest, most virtuous person in the country and give them a substantial amount of power to influence the direction of the country. if i elect a single person to represent the nation i want an inspirational leader, not a figurehead.

those would be a couple of immediate concerns, but let's go point by point.

In the most basic sense, it is a monarchy that limits the power of the monarch through a constitution.

I can come up with more specific stuff, but I would say many propositions and referendums for the citizenry to vote on, 2 year terms, 3 term limit for congressmen/members of the parliament with votes halfway through on job satisfaction (if below a certain % they must go up for election on next slated vote (referendum etc)),

i love this idea. but to play devil's advocate, this idea requires a lot of civic engagement to be effective. politicians already have these kind of term limits now, but we still let them get away with murder. politicians pay attention to the public in the immediate months leading up to the elections, but ignore us the other months of the year. leading up to elections all the politicians are making the rounds in the streets, on television, in the neighborhoods, in local churches, etc., and after they get elected they go back to work for their corporate masters.

so how do we avoid the same pitfalls?

we also have to get into the discussion of how campaigns are conducted. because as long as corporations are financing the politicians, the politicians are going to support corporate initiatives. so how do we go about better structuring election campaign finance?

8 year term for monarch (3 term max, with satisfaction votes every 4 years),

same concern as above

laws and stipulations for immediate deposal or another election,

i absolutely love this concept. i think this is one of the few solutions we could implement in our current social condition that could change things dramatically. again, it would take a lot of civic engagement to be effective, but i think this is exactly the type of thing that could get people excited about the political process again. and excited people are engaged people.

technocratic elements for each department/industry (panel made through appointment, who must collect votes from peers in the field to determine planning and appropriation of funds),

sounds ok... i'd need a few more specifics to form a solid opinion though.

power of the monarch to veto passed propositions/referendums if passed under a certain %, strong legal system of which the monarch can only be a tie breaking vote in Supreme Court (even number of judges),

no problem with any of that

strict limits on salary/earnings of those in the gov't,

i like that, might be tough to enforce though.

no political parties,

:banderas: love that. thats probably the best idea in this thread. eliminating the parties would bring nothing but positive benefits imo


full disclosure on legislation (if something gets passed under a certain %, then it gets voted on by public as yay or nay and sent to monarch for approval if majority votes in favor) and candidates,

im with all this... especially getting the public more involved in the tie-breaking aspect of a vote

process for quick repeal of laws and monarch can only nominate or endorse a candidate to replace him if the monarch leaves office on his own or goes through max years of reign.

respect:obama:

but if he leaves office in disgrace we might have to revisit this :ufdup:




____________________
all in all good points.

when i originally asked this question, i was thinking about what system would work best given our CURRENT political and economic climate. yours looks good on paper, but so did the original charter of the US, and look where that's gotten us.

whatever solution we implement has to address the private interest domination of public policy. until we get the money out of politics and restore some integrity we're going to run into the same problem no matter what system we put in place.

but props for the response. and props for the good dialogue my man!
 
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MewTwo

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The correct answer is either anarchy or minarchy. But people are such sheep that they WANT government to be super powerful and tell them how to run their lives.
 
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DEAD7

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i agree people have the ability to mediate their own circumstances to a certain degree. but can an entire populous effectively mediate their circumstances on a day to day basis? im a little skeptical of our ability to do that.

i think you underestimate the amount of people who tone down their behavior because of the institution of law. there are a lot of unscrupulous savages in society breh.

Thought about this some more...

:patrice: let s see if I go this correct.

You believe people cant govern them selves....
But you believe some people can govern millions of other people?
:dwillhuh:
 

Type Username Here

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Any entity that brings in individuals to live in a society by governed rules and compromises can never be perfect. That being said, I still think that a Republic (via Democracy and with multitude of checks/balances) is the best way to go. I just think that people see the failure in the American system and think that's the epitome of it, and I don't think it is. It can be vastly improved, and NEW checks and balances can be introduced, especially with emerging technologies.
 

tmonster

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robot overlords
not kidding
just write algorithms for machines to run society
 

tmonster

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People still decide on what the code consists of.
good point
I'm thinking
start with code based on simple laws and outcomes that everyone can understand
we have some decent laws at inception but they've been messed with and edentulated, not to mention usurped as time went on
 

OsO

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The correct answer is either anarchy or minarchy. But people are such sheep that they WANT government to be super powerful and tell them how to run their lives.

so what happens when we occupy the same space and my version of anarchy conflicts with your version of anarchy?
 
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