Where most origin comic movies fail and Batman Begins and TDK shines.

[The_Sheff]

Most comic origin films make the huge mistake of placing the most iconic villain in the film and defeating him. Its hard enough to give enough time to the title character's origin in the first film but when you also need to tell the origin story of their greatest villain along with build the setting something is going to get shortchanged. It makes the movie seem rushed and the villain doesn't get enough time to shine.

The first Spiderman villain shouldnt have been the Green Goblin (An argument can be had on who Spiderman's top nemesis is but Green Goblin is definitely up there). Captain America shouldn't have actually defeated the Red Skull in his first film and the Fantastic 4 damn sure should not be defeating Dr. Doom in the first movie.

This is what Batman got right, they let the first film be a complete origin story and had him face decent villains in Ra's Al Ghoul and Scarecrow. Then in the second film after the universe has been set up and Batman's story has been told they could devote a large amount of time building up the Joker and doing him justice. They wouldnt be able to do that if he was crammed into the first movie. Iron Man did the right thing in having him face Iron Monger (but then fukked the up later flicks). Spiderman got away with it a bit because he has so many good villains that they still had a Dr Octopus waiting in the wings after Green Goblin was gone but they still shouldn't have wasted Goblin like that.

Lastly thats how i know this new Fantastic 4 is gonna be trash. 90 minutes for an origin film with Dr. Doom as the main villain, yeah thats gonna be bad.

 

[Ed MOTHERFUCKING G]

Agreed...but you're assuming that the director needs to trust that there WILL be sequels to save the good villains for. They really can't.

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

Agreed...but you're assuming that the director needs to trust that there WILL be sequels to save the good villains for. They really can't.

Yep. Its the reason Burton did the Joker in Batman 89. Its the reason he

Spoiler

killed off the Joker

Thought they were only getting one movie.

 

[Atsym Sknyfs]

Agreed...but you're assuming that the director needs to trust that there WILL be sequels to save the good villains for. They really can't.

I agree with your statement ... but they don't need to kill the villian..

Original FF was OK... doom didnt die
batman Begins .. we tought Ra's died

Spider-Man should never have killed Green Goblin.. especially in the first movie.

Problem is America has this fixation with the good guy always winning so thats why this happens.. Bad Guys only win in part 2 of a trilogy (SW, dark knight, LOTR, etc)

 

[Ed MOTHERFUCKING G]

I agree with your statement ... but they don't need to kill the villian..

Original FF was OK... doom didnt die
batman Begins .. we tought Ra's died

Spider-Man should never have killed Green Goblin.. especially in the first movie.

Problem is America has this fixation with the good guy always winning so thats why this happens.. Bad Guys only win in part 2 of a trilogy (SW, dark knight, LOTR, etc)

Yeah but you said the OP said defeat in the OP, not kill. And the premise is that they should save the top villian for future films. If you do that you end up with green lantern and you face parallax and tease sinestro for a sequel that never happens

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

i'll be honest, i'm beginning to wonder if origin films are even necessary.

what do we really wanna see? the superhero in all his glory or the story of how he BECAME a superhero? what is it that hooked us on these characters in the first place as kids. was it the gripping backstory or was it the hero in action?

the fleischer superman cartoons took care of the origin in the opening 15 seconds. they give us the premise right there. home planet destroyed, sent here as an orphan, has great powers. that's all we needed. the rest was just seeing superman in all his glory.

i prefer batman as a man of mystery. i don't need them to peel back every layer. i don't need to see him fashioning his bat-a-rangs and attending biology school. it's better if that stuff is just left to the imagination. better you start the story where he is already batman and refer to his grim past either via dialogue or via flashback. i wanna see batman, not the story of how he became batman.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

I agree with your statement ... but they don't need to kill the villian..

Original FF was OK... doom didnt die
batman Begins .. we tought Ra's died

Spider-Man should never have killed Green Goblin.. especially in the first movie.

Problem is America has this fixation with the good guy always winning so thats why this happens.. Bad Guys only win in part 2 of a trilogy (SW, dark knight, LOTR, etc)

superhero movies weren't guaranteed hits back in 2002, it was a bit of a gamble to put all that money into spiderman. not a huge gamble, but still a gamble. for all they knew that MIGHT have been the one and only spiderman movie.

do you really wanna take a chance with a lesser known villain, or is better to just load up on your big guns?

 

[Atsym Sknyfs]

Y

Yeah but you said defeat in the OP, not kill. And the premise is that they should save the top villian for future films. If you do that you end up with green lantern and you face parallax and tease sinestro for a sequel that never happens

I didnt do the OP...

i'm agreeing with you and the OP.. which is probably the problem ... I see what he's saying but I see what you said .. thats why i said the problem i see is when they KILL the villian because that hurts an extended universe... defeating him and putting him in jail can work

 

[Atsym Sknyfs]

superhero movies weren't guaranteed hits back in 2002, it was a bit of a gamble to put all that money into spiderman. not a huge gamble, but still a gamble. for all they knew that MIGHT have been the one and only spiderman movie.

do you really wanna take a chance with a lesser known villain, or is better to just load up on your big guns?

I only said he shouldnt have died... I saw no problem with spidey winning ... Can a good guy ever win without the badguy dying ...

 

[Ed MOTHEREFFING G]

i'll be honest, i'm beginning to wonder if origin films are even necessary.

what do we really wanna see? the superhero in all his glory or the story of how he BECAME a superhero? what is it that hooked us on these characters in the first place as kids. was it the gripping backstory or was it the hero in action?

the fleischer superman cartoons took care of the origin in the opening 15 seconds. they give us the premise right there. home planet destroyed, sent here as an orphan, has great powers. that's all we needed. the rest was just seeing superman in all his glory.

i prefer batman as a man of mystery. i don't need them to peel back every layer. i don't need to see him fashioning his bat-a-rangs and attending biology school. it's better if that stuff is just left to the imagination. better you start the story where he is already batman and refer to his grim past either via dialogue or via flashback. i wanna see batman, not the story of how he became batman.

They are necessary for everyone except spiderman and batman.

 

[Ed MOTHEREFFING G]

I only said he shouldnt have died... I saw no problem with spidey winning ... Can a good guy ever win without the badguy dying ...

well in marvel's case their villians are so inconsequential, it doesn't matter either way and they never really die...

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

They are necessary for everyone except spiderman and batman.

Why would you say those 2

 

[The_Sheff]

Yeah but you said the OP said defeat in the OP, not kill. And the premise is that they should save the top villian for future films. If you do that you end up with green lantern and you face parallax and tease sinestro for a sequel that never happens

When you dealing with top tier superheroes like Batman, Spiderman, X-Men, etc...there will be a sequel. Nobody fukked with Green Lantern from the jump so it really didnt matter what they did there. The excitement of just seeing Spiderman and Batman can carry the first film, just have them fight some off brand villain while learning to cope with their powers/responsibility and tease the villain everyone wants to see like they did in Batman Begins.

Dr. Doom is one of Marvels' greatest villains, how can you establish him, the Fantastic 4, the universe, and have him defeated in 90 minutes and do him justice? Thats just a waste.

 

[MartyMcFly]

Green goblin is a great first villain for a first spider man story but yeah he shouldn't die. Now grant it, you don't know the movie is going to be a success so you try to tell your story assuming you only get one shot but a villain like Norman should be alive for three movies even if he's in the background to continue filling out the world

 

[MartyMcFly]

Why would you say those 2

Everyone knows their stories at this point and how they came to be. In 2002 I could see it being needed but not now, at least in my opinion