What Libertarianism is Not

[714562]

Not a Libertarian myself,but zerohedge is occasionally great and this is a provocative post:

What Libertarianism Is Not | Zero Hedge

As libertarianism begins to gain in popularity and seep into the youth culture, there is increasing pressure from certain strains of the movement to attempt to modify the theory and transform it into something that it is not.

To begin with, let us examine what is meant by the term “libertarian,” what its limits are, and what it attempts to explain. Libertarianism is exclusively a political philosophy describing the legitimate use of force in society. It claims that humans have the right of self-ownership, and that theft, assault and other forms of aggression violate this right, except in the case of legitimate self-defense against an aggressor. This is where the philosophy begins and ends, and although some libertarians dispute the circumstances under which force is acceptable (the Night Watchman state versus no state at all), it still has the legitimate use of force as its core.

It is not an economic philosophy, although its conclusion tends to support free market capitalism due to the lack of coercion inherent in such a system. Still, there is no dictum against collective ownership so long as it is voluntary. This is what anarcho-communism is all about.

Similarly, libertarianism has little to say about politics except for what follows directly from its central precept. Taxes are immoral because they involve coercion. Democracy is no better than dictatorship if it imposes the will of the many onto the few by force. And so on.

But because libertarianism has become fashionable among a certain segment of the population, and because we wish to expand the movement and convert others to it, there has been a push to expand this simple definition into a more holistic ethical code encompassing every aspect of life, almost akin to a religion. We are told that non-discrimination based on superficial characteristics like race and sex is an inherently libertarian position. It is not. So long as discrimination does not violate anyone’s rights of self-ownership, the theory simply has nothing to say about it (although we can observe that a capitalistic system is unlikely to encourage such behavior due to the way it tends to impact profits.)

Where these well-meaning meddlers go wrong is in assuming that just because libertarianism per se doesn’t have a position on racism, that libertarians qua human beings do not have such a position either. This is absurd. Libertarianism is by its nature a narrow philosophy, with plenty of room to coexist along with other philosophies as well. Just as being a vegetarian does not exclude one from being Jewish, so does being a libertarian not exclude one from being a humanitarian.

We are more than a simple political philosophy, and while this defines the moral lens through which we see much of the world, it is not the totality of our being. For example, libertarianism has nothing to say on the subject of suicide. If we own ourselves, we have the right to terminate ourselves. Period. However, no libertarian I have ever met would encourage such an activity, and most would find it utterly reprehensible. The point is that you can hold a belief that something is wrong without having to fold it into a specific political philosophy where it has no business being.

Granted, certain ethical outlooks fit nicely within libertarianism while others do not. Kant’s categorical imperative that we treat humans as ends in themselves rather than means to an end works well, as does the Biblical Golden Rule, treat others as you would like to be treated. They are not explicitly part of libertarian theory, but they are compatible with it.On the other hand, one would be hard pressed to combine a restrictive set of laws, such as Sharia, with the non-aggression principle.

The trouble is that by attempting to redefine a narrow political philosophy to encompass all things that we like and think are nice – like non-discrimination, like treating people as ends rather than means – we dilute its power and simplicity. We destroy what makes it great. Once we proceed down the road of declaring everything we think is good to be “libertarian,” we will quickly find that libertarianism suddenly has no meaning at all.

Let’s leave the philosophy of non-aggression where it belongs, and feel free to supplement it with any other moral or ethical codes we also hold. It is a mistake, however, to try to combine all our views about life into one amorphous blob of watered-down libertarianism.

 

[tmonster]

Saturday, Dec 28, 2013 07:30 AM EDT
Why I fled libertarianism — and became a liberal
I was a Ron Paul delegate back in 2008 -- now I'm a Democrat. Here's my personal tale of disgust and self-discovery
Edwin Lyngar

• Topics: Libertarianism, Ron Paul, 2008 Elections, Liberalism, Barack Obama, Editor's Picks, Racism, Politics News
  
  A photo of the author
  The night before the 2008 Nevada Republican convention, the Ron Paul delegates all met at a Reno high school. Although I’d called myself a libertarian for almost my entire adult life, it was my first exposure to the wider movement.
  
  And boy, was it a circus. Many members of the group were obsessed with the gold standard, the Kennedy assassination and the Fed. Although Libertarians believe government is incompetent, many of them subscribe to the most fringe conspiracy theories imaginable. Airplanes are poisoning America with chemicals (chemtrails) or the moon landings were faked. Nothing was too far out. A great many of them really think that 9-11 was an inside job. Even while basking in the electoral mainstream, the movement was overflowing with obvious hokum.
  
  During the meeting, a Ron Paul staffer, a smart and charismatic young woman, gave a tip to the group for the upcoming convention.
  
  “Dress normal,” she said. “Wear suits, and don’t bring signs or flags. Don’t talk about conspiracy theories. Just fit in.” Her advice was the kind you might hear given to an insane uncle at Thanksgiving.
  
  Then next day, I ran into that same operative at the convention, and I complimented her because Ron Paul delegates were being accepted into the crowd. I added, “We‘re going to win this thing.”
  
  “Bring in the clowns,” she said, and smiled before I lost her in the mass of people.
  
  I will never forget that moment: Bring in the clowns. At the time, I considered myself a thoughtful person, yet I could hardly claim to be one if you judged me by the company I kept. The young lady knew something I had not yet learned: most of our supporters were totally fukking nuts.
  
  I came by my own libertarian sensibilities honestly. I grew up in a mining town that produced gold, silver and copper; but above all, Battle Mountain, Nev. made libertarians. Raised on 40-acre square of brown sage brush and dead earth, we burned our own garbage and fired guns in the back yard.
  
  After leaving my small town upbringing, I learned that libertarians are made for lots of reasons, like reading the bad fiction of Ayn Rand or perhaps the passable writing of Robert Heinlein. In my experience, most seemed to be poor, white and undereducated. They were contortionists, justifying the excesses of the capitalist elite, despite being victims if libertarian politics succeed.
  
  If you think that selfishness and cruelty are fantastic personal traits, you might be a libertarian. In the movement no one will ever call you an a$$hole, but rather, say you believe in radical individualism.
  
  Yet I don’t want to gloss over the good things about libertarians. They are generally supportive of the gay community, completely behind marijuana legalization and are often against ill-considered foreign wars, but a few good ideas don’t make up for some spectacularly bad ones. Their saving grace is a complete lack of organizational ability, which is why they are always trying to take over the Republican Party, rather than create a party of their own.
  
  The Ron Paul delegates were able to take over the Nevada convention in 2008, howling, screeching and grinding it to a painful halt. I was part of the mob, and once we took over, we were unable to get anything done. The national delegates were appointed in secret later.
  
  The Republican convention didn’t turn me off of libertarians, but I started losing respect for the movement while watching the financial meltdown. Libertarians were (rightly) furious when our government bailed out the banks, but they fought hardest against help for ordinary Americans. They hated unemployment insurance and reduced school lunches. I used to say similar things, but in such a catastrophic recession isn’t the government supposed to help? Isn’t that the lesson of the Great Depression?
  
  Through all the turmoil, the presidential election went ahead. Although I didn’t vote for him, I wept when Barack Obama took the oath of office in early 2009. They were tears of bewilderment, joy, pride and hope, despite the fact that I did everything within my own limited power to keep the moment from ever happening.
  
  From the ashes of the election rose the movement that pushed me from convinced libertarian into bunny-hugging liberal. The Tea Party monster forever tainted the words freedom and libertarian for me. The rise of the Tea Party made me want to puke, and my nausea is now a chronic condition.
  
  There are a lot of libertarians in the Tea Party, but there are also a lot of repugnant, religious nuts and intolerant racists. “Birthers” found a comfy home among 9-11 conspiracy people and other crackpots. After only a few months, I had absolutely no desire to ever be linked to this group of people.
  
  As evidence, I offer the most repugnant example of many complaints. I’ve heard the n-word used in casual conversation from people I would never expect. Some people might not believe it or think I’m playing the race card, but I’m not. I’ve heard the word more than I care to admit and more often in the run-up to the 2012 election. Perhaps because I’m a big, fat and bald white guy with a mean goatee, racists think I’m on board with them. I am not, and I’m ashamed to admit that my cowardice at confronting this ugliness makes me complicit.
  
  During Obama’s first term, I also went to graduate school for creative writing at progressive college, and I settled into my marriage with my wife, a Canadian and “goddamn liberal.” I can’t point to just one thing that pushed me left, but in Obama’s first term I had a change of heart, moving from a lifelong extreme into the bosom of conventional liberalism.
  
  I began to think about real people, like my neighbors and people less lucky than me. Did I want those people to starve to death? I care about children, even poor ones. I love the National Park system. The best parts of the America I love are our communities. My libertarian friends might call me a fukking commie (they have) or a p*ssy, but extreme selfishness is just so isolating and cruel. Libertarianism is unnatural, and the size of the federal government is almost irrelevant. The real question is: what does society need and how do we pay for it?
  
  A month before the 2012 election, I changed my party affiliation to Democrat. I am a very late bloomer, that it took me so many decades to develop my own values. I was thirty-nine.
  
  I don’t think regular Americans have any idea just how crazy libertarians can be. The only human corollary I can offer is unquestioning religious fervor, and hell yeah, I used to be a true believer. Libertarians think they own the word “freedom,” but it’s a word that often obfuscates more than enlightens. If you believe the Johann Wolfgang von Goethe quote “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free,” then libertarians live in a prison of their own ideology.
  

 

[714562]

What was your point with that article? Did read OP? I'm confused? @tmonster

ZH just made the point that libertarianism is NOT AN ECONOMIC PHILOSOPHY and yet this guy is writing about how libertarians fought hardest against help for the common man.

OP points out that the problem with libertarians is that they're trying to shoehorn a limited political philosophy into every facet of life. The problem is with libertarians, not the core of libertarianism.,

 

[DEAD7]

Saturday, Dec 28, 2013 07:30 AM EDT
Why I fled libertarianism — and became a liberal
I was a Ron Paul delegate back in 2008 -- now I'm a Democrat. Here's my personal tale of disgust and self-discovery
Edwin Lyngar

 

[Serious]

What was your point with that article? Did read OP? I'm confused? @tmonster

ZH just made the point that libertarianism is NOT AN ECONOMIC PHILOSOPHY and yet this guy is writing about how libertarians fought hardest against help for the common man.

OP points out that the problem with libertarians is that they're trying to shoehorn a limited political philosophy into every facet of life. The problem is with libertarians, not the core of libertarianism.,

 

[tmonster]

What was your point with that article? Did read OP? I'm confused? @tmonster

ZH just made the point that libertarianism is NOT AN ECONOMIC PHILOSOPHY and yet this guy is writing about how libertarians fought hardest against help for the common man.

OP points out that the problem with libertarians is that they're trying to shoehorn a limited political philosophy into every facet of life. The problem is with libertarians, not the core of libertarianism.,

the point is the difference between theory and reality
or the bait and switch

 

[Street Knowledge]

I would say 85 to 90 percent of the things I see people say they fear about a libertarian style government/society is happening already in some shape or form

 

[714562]

the point is the difference between theory and reality
or the bait and switch

....a point that was ALREADY MADE IN THE OP when he said that Libertarians were trying to inappropriately shoehorn the philosophy into areas where it didn't belong and coming up with bad results.

So you have no point to make.

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

Seems spot on. It really is more of a 'moral' standpoint uber alles.

 

[DEAD7]

I would say 85 to 90 percent of the things I see people say they fear about a libertarian style government/society is happening already in some shape or form

 

[tmonster]

....a point that was ALREADY MADE IN THE OP when he said that Libertarians were trying to inappropriately shoehorn the philosophy into areas where it didn't belong and coming up with bad results.

So you have no point to make.

I think my article made a fabulous point

 

[Broke Wave]

What was your point with that article? Did read OP? I'm confused? @tmonster

ZH just made the point that libertarianism is NOT AN ECONOMIC PHILOSOPHY and yet this guy is writing about how libertarians fought hardest against help for the common man.

OP points out that the problem with libertarians is that they're trying to shoehorn a limited political philosophy into every facet of life. The problem is with libertarians, not the core of libertarianism.,

That is total bullshyt. Libertarianism is a tangible thing not an amorphous belief system. It is an economic philosophy along with a social philosophy. It's as tangible as Marxism. Zero Hedge is the among the dumbest websites on Earth.

 

[DEAD7]

That is total bullshyt. Libertarianism is a tangible thing not an amorphous belief system. It is an economic philosophy along with a social philosophy. It's as tangible as Marxism. Zero Hedge is the among the dumbest websites on Earth.

 

[Broke Wave]

My dude, I got nothing against you and I think you're a good poster, but this is like the 50th time you've quoted me and just posted smilies. If all you have to post is a smiley or some shyt please don't even do it, it wastes a whole post of me replying to you breh.

 

[DEAD7]

My dude, I got nothing against you and I think you're a good poster, but this is like the 50th time you've quoted me and just posted smilies. If all you have to post is a smiley or some shyt please don't even do it, it wastes a whole post of me replying to you breh.

Fair enough.

But rather than debate our opinions of what libertariansim is or isn't lets appeal to some valid authorities yes?

Libertarianism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

feel free to post sources validating your assertion of what libertarianism is or isn't, and we will go from there.
This could actually end up being a interesting discussion.