What did 2nd Temple Judaism Believe……REALLY?

[DoubleClutch]

And we are back at it again with another Coli religious debate.

Let’s call it the “two powers in heaven dilemma”

It’s been a while, so I’m here to shake things up a little (not too much MODS ) and pose the question as to “what did 2nd temple Jews believe”

The answer might surprise you.



The YouTube algorithm recently blessed me with this video and it was so random I had to watch

Perfect video for @Koichos @MMS @Marks and anyone else with deep interest in these topics….. and whatever lurkers are out there.

Good lecture on a complex topic

In a nutshell my take aways:

Binitarianism (never heard of that term before)

Jewish power structure was against any theology that leaned towards early Christianity

Is Rabbi Akiva considered a heretic? And why is the concept of two powers and NOT two persons so hard to accept in rabbinic Judaism?

But in the same token, 2nd temple Jews had some serious knowledge/wisdom and wrote some interesting texts and appeared to be on a whole different level than Jews/Judasim today

What happened? @Koichos

@MMS im kinda starting to get what you say about Egypt. You’re not right 100% but some stuff makes sense after watching this video

And of course I got smoke for Muslims

How did Islam “revert” from any concept of two powers in heaven which Judaism taught assuming it’s the “same God”?

It’s as if they copied 6-7 century Jews and tried to make their own version of a Rabbi power structure (for Arabs) who opposed anything suggesting Jesus being God…. but why?

Was Jesus himself the threat to new religions or just the growing number of Christians to a “Arab” kingdom/power?

If the Jewish messiah is DIVINE what does that mean for Muslims who claim Jesus is the messiah?

The bottom line? Nobody understands God 100% But according to the scriptures God is more complex than people who follow abrahamic faiths today would suggest

Why would anyone want to simplify God and understand him LESS or Not at all?

Perhaps the answer is “only Allah knows”

As always watch it yourself and make your own
Judgment and see where you fit in.

 

[MMS]

And we are back at it again with another Coli religious debate.

Let’s call it the “two powers in heaven dilemma”

It’s been a while, so I’m here to shake things up a little (not too much MODS ) and pose the question as to “what did 2nd temple Jews believe”

The answer might surprise you.



The YouTube algorithm recently blessed me with this video and it was so random I had to watch

Perfect video for @Koichos @MMS @Marks and anyone else with deep interest in these topics….. and whatever lurkers are out there.

Good lecture on a complex topic

In a nutshell my take aways:

Binitarianism (never heard of that term before)

Jewish power structure was against any theology that leaned towards early Christianity

Is Rabbi Akiva considered a heretic? And why is the concept of two powers and NOT two persons so hard to accept in rabbinic Judaism?

But in the same token, 2nd temple Jews had some serious knowledge/wisdom and wrote some interesting texts and appeared to be on a whole different level than Jews/Judasim today

What happened? @Koichos

@MMS im kinda starting to get what you say about Egypt. You’re not right 100% but some stuff makes sense after watching this video

And of course I got smoke for Muslims

How did Islam “revert” from any concept of two powers in heaven which Judaism taught assuming it’s the “same God”?

It’s as if they copied 6-7 century Jews and tried to make their own version of a Rabbi power structure (for Arabs) who opposed anything suggesting Jesus being God…. but why?

Was Jesus himself the threat to new religions or just the growing number of Christians to a “Arab” kingdom/power?

If the Jewish messiah is DIVINE what does that mean for Muslims who claim Jesus is the messiah?

The bottom line? Nobody understands God 100% But according to the scriptures God is more complex than people who follow abrahamic faiths today would suggest

Why would anyone want to simplify God and understand him LESS or Not at all?

Perhaps the answer is “only Allah knows”

As always watch it yourself and make your own
Judgment and see where you fit in.

building off the thread where the reddit witches tried to best Allah

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/reddit-witches-try-to-curse-the-taliban-and-allah-turns-their-minds-into-a-pack.1055015/

this is my take on "two powers"

it is the dualism trap. At first glance light and darkness make sense considered as "good and evil", but to someone who understands Nun (nothingness) dualism is like dry land.

Another way to consider dualism is: edible and inedible

sexual reproduction vs asexual reproduction

it goes on and on, however the key to discernment of monotheism is that it is a tool used by That God to design the heavens and the earth (and God saw the light that it was good and separated it from the darkness)

it is a mode of creation in itself, but christians take it in the wrong direction

to an egyptian the nearest problem they had to solve was edible vs inedible.

Ancient Egyptian cuisine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That is the secret to last chapters of Genesis. IE when i insinuated that David of the psalms is actually the mandrake how would that make you feel? could you call an onion your king?

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/the-language-of-god-good-lecture.1009400/page-3#post-52212011

 

[DoubleClutch]

building off the thread where the reddit witches tried to best Allah

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/reddit-witches-try-to-curse-the-taliban-and-allah-turns-their-minds-into-a-pack.1055015/

this is my take on "two powers"

it is the dualism trap. At first glance light and darkness make sense considered as "good and evil", but to someone who understands Nun (nothingness) dualism is like dry land.

Another way to consider dualism is: edible and inedible

sexual reproduction vs asexual reproduction

it goes on and on, however the key to discernment of monotheism is that it is a tool used by That God to design the heavens and the earth (and God saw the light that it was good and separated it from the darkness)

it is a mode of creation in itself, but christians take it in the wrong direction

to an egyptian the nearest problem they had to solve was edible vs inedible.

Ancient Egyptian cuisine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That is the secret to last chapters of Genesis. IE when i insinuated that David of the psalms is actually the mandrake how would that make you feel? could you call an onion your king?

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/the-language-of-god-good-lecture.1009400/page-3#post-52212011

Is it “Christians” that take it in the wrong direction or JESUS that makes dualism incompatible with your views?

Your views are more strictly gnostic so we will disagree on that.

But seems like you’re trolling with the food analogy. You’d need to back it up with some type of scholars or video explaining it

But did you even watch the entire lecture? What don’t you agree with?

I think you know more about Judaism than me

 

[MMS]

Is it “Christians” that take it in the wrong direction or JESUS that makes dualism incompatible with your views?

Your views are more strictly gnostic so we will disagree on that.

But seems like you’re trolling with the food analogy. You’d need to back it up with some type of scholars or video explaining it

But did you even watch the entire lecture? What don’t you agree with?

I think you know more about Judaism than me

im no gnostic

im just saying that the lines in genesis 1 "and the waters gathered unto one place under heaven and the dry land appeared" is where the confusion starts

and im not trolling, what makes something edible and inedible? biblically speaking

 

[DoubleClutch]

im no gnostic

im just saying that the lines in genesis 1 "and the waters gathered unto one place under heaven and the dry land appeared" is where the confusion starts

and im not trolling, what makes something edible and inedible? biblically speaking

“Biblically speaking” or According to Jesus?

“It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth” is Matthew 15:11

 

[MMS]

“Biblically speaking” or According to Jesus?

“It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth” is Matthew 15:11

biblically speaking

there is a difference between the words defile and "unclean"

defile definition - Google Search

one is used primarily with a "sexual" context

whereas unclean and clean were a food context, conflating those together when you see fit is a gross error (literally)

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 14 - King James Version

Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. Thou...

www.biblegateway.com

it is lines like this why Rabbis considered Jesus sexually immoral.

 

[DoubleClutch]

biblically speaking

there is a difference between the words defile and "unclean"

defile definition - Google Search

one is used primarily with a "sexual" context

whereas unclean and clean were a food context, conflating those together when you see fit is a gross error (literally)

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 14 - King James Version

Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. Thou...

www.biblegateway.com

it is lines like this why Rabbis considered Jesus sexually immoral.

I’m gonna need @Koichos to fact check this although there is no universal “rabbi” opinion on anything

plus Jesus was a “rabbi” afterall

But what do you think about the video as far as the scriptures he referenced and quotes?

Or do you NOT believe in the scriptures

 

[Koichos]

Is Rabbi Akiva considered a heretic?

אַדְּרַבָּא ad'rabba ('No, on the contrary') - as the Sages would say; so much so that his martyrdom actually features in the liturgy on Yοm Kippur and Tish'ah B'av.

And why is the concept of two powers and NOT two persons so hard to accept in rabbinic Judaism?

For the benefit of the general readership, can you explain what you're referring to?

But in the same token, 2nd temple Jews had some serious knowledge/wisdom and wrote some interesting texts and appeared to be on a whole different level than Jews/Judasim today

What happened? @Koichos

That's יְרִידַת הַדּוֹֹרוֹֹת y'ridat haddorot for you. I'm not convinced, though, that this notion (of being so greatly inferior to our predecessors) is always justified.

If the Jewish messiah is DIVINE what does that mean for Muslims who claim Jesus is the messiah?

Where do you get the idea that our messiahs (note: plural form) are anything other than normal human beings?

I’m gonna need @Koichos to fact check this although there is no universal “rabbi” opinion on anything

@MMS should give some examples, no?

 

[MMS]

אַדְּרַבָּא ad'rabba ('No, on the contrary') - as the Sages would say; so much so that his martyrdom actually features in the liturgy on Yοm Kippur and Tish'ah B'av.


For the benefit of the general readership, can you explain what you're referring to?


That's יְרִידַת הַדּוֹֹרוֹֹת y'ridat haddorot for you. I'm not convinced, though, that this notion (of being so greatly inferior to our predecessors) is always justified.


Where do you get the idea that our messiahs (note: plural form) are anything other than normal human beings?


@MMS should give some examples, no?

its one of those situations where hebrew is a more sensitive language

so the use of some terms in greek/aramaic can be taken into different directions on a weird level

whereas the torah is far more absolute in how it was written and transcribed

the real lense to consider is whether you are reading from the persian captivity or the egyptian captivity

or the illusion in between a game i played awhile back called Arslan had an interesting first level where they trapped the crown prince behind pits of fire

the first thought is literal fire, the second thought is ritual/allegorical fire. Its an interesting way of teaching the son of the king

Ezekiel 19:1-3

1 Moreover take thou up a lamentation for the princes of Israel,

2 And say, What is thy mother? A lioness: she lay down among lions, she nourished her whelps among young lions.

3 And she brought up one of her whelps: it became a young lion, and it learned to catch the prey; it devoured men.

literal or allegorial or both?

Qetesh - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DoubleClutch]

אַדְּרַבָּא ad'rabba ('No, on the contrary') - as the Sages would say; so much so that his martyrdom actually features in the liturgy on Yοm Kippur and Tish'ah B'av.


For the benefit of the general readership, can you explain what you're referring to?


That's יְרִידַת הַדּוֹֹרוֹֹת y'ridat haddorot for you. I'm not convinced, though, that this notion (of being so greatly inferior to our predecessors) is always justified.


Where do you get the idea that our messiahs (note: plural form) are anything other than normal human beings?


@MMS should give some examples, no?

You gotta watch the video I posted. Trust me it’s worth your while. I can’t remember all the details on the two powers but the guy breaks down the history with facts and scriptures better than I can right now….. but i understand it 100%

Like I said I believe in all the Torah and Prophets like you do

But my question is why Jewish thought and interpretation hasn’t progressed or advanced to where they came to a general consensus or agreement on this topic

It seems like they were on to something during the 2nd temple Judaism up until 6-7 century with early Islam and the arab conquests

Then it falls off a cliff but I don’t know much history behind that or afterwards

But I do know at one point EVERYONE thought THE Messiah was coming soon (and not soon as eventually)

I don’t know about a theory of “multiple messiahs” and even proto muslims obsessed with the “last day” and Jesus returning

And “where I get the idea about anything other than human” is from the video and also based on Judaism

A while ago I watched a video title the “Jewish Messiah is divine” and it was made by a Jewish person. So I figured that’s standard of what Judaism believes

And y'ridat haddorot is true but how is it possible when the Torah and Jewish traditions are the same now as it was thousands of years ago?

Maybe lack of faith over the years.

 

[MMS]

And y'ridat haddorot is true but how is it possible when the Torah and Jewish traditions are the same now as it was thousands of years ago?

Maybe lack of faith over the years.

why do you assume that they should change? especially given the the narrative in the Torah?

Is this a lie to you?

Deuteronomy 4:36-40

36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.

37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day.

39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, for ever.

 

[Koichos]

You gotta watch the video I posted. Trust me it’s worth your while. I can’t remember all the details on the two powers but the guy breaks down the history with facts and scriptures better than I can right now….. but i understand it 100%

Trying to make deductions on the basis of a translation—of texts that are classed as s'farim ħitzοnim ('external [i.e., heretical] books'), because some of the concepts they touch upon are inconsistent with Jewish theology and/or culture, so were excluded from the Hebrew cannon—is what he spent the entire presentation doing.

Just take a look at how the 72 Jewish Elders incorporated into the Septuagint (the translation made for King Ptolemy II in the 3rd century BCE) the first alteration,

• אֱלֹקִים בָּרָא בְּרֵאשִׁית elοhim bara b'reshyt ('God created at the beginning...') rather than
• בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹקִים b'reshyt bara elοhim ('At the beginning of God's creating...'),

reversing the syntax of the Tοrah’s opening words (in B'reshyt 1:1a) in case the 'multiple powers' heretics should say that בְּרֵאשִׁית b'reshyt created אֱלֹקִים elοhim!

Like I said I believe in all the Torah and Prophets like you do

But my question is why Jewish thought and interpretation hasn’t progressed or advanced to where they came to a general consensus or agreement on this topic

There was, and is. (See the first, second and third of the Ramba"m’s Thirteen Principles into which he condensed the essence of Judaism.)

It seems like they were on to something during the 2nd temple Judaism up until 6-7 century with early Islam and the arab conquests

Then it falls off a cliff but I don’t know much history behind that or afterwards

See above.

But I do know at one point EVERYONE thought THE Messiah was coming soon (and not soon as eventually)

I don’t know about a theory of “multiple messiahs” and even proto muslims obsessed with the “last day” and Jesus returning

ALL our kings - from Sha'ul right down to Tzidḳiyyahu - were messiahs. מִִשְׁחָָה mishħah ('smearing', anointment) was the name given to the coronation ceremony of the ancient Jewish kings. A מָָשִִֽׁיחַַ mashiyaħ ('messiah', a person who has been smeared with oil) is thus a person who was מָָָשֽׁוּחַַ mashu'aħ ('smeared') with the שֶֶֽׁמֶֶֶן מִִשְׁחַַת קֺֽדֶשׁ shemmen mishħat ḳοdesh ('smearing of sanctity oil') in accordance with the Tοrah’s instructions given in Parashat ‘Ki Tissa’ (Sh'mοt) 30:22-33.

Three Jewish kings are explicitly called by the title מָָשִֽׁיחַַ mashiyaħ:

• King Sha'ul was a messiah (Sh'muël Part I 12:3,5; 24:7[x2],11; 26:9,11,16,23; Sh'muël Part II 1:14,16)
• King David was a messiah (Sh'muël Part II 19:22, 22:51, 23:1; Tillim 18:51)​
• King Yοshiyyahu was a messiah (Eichah 4:20; compare D.H. Part II 35:25)​

And God refers explicitly to His messiahs (note, again: plural form) in both Tillim 105:15 and D.H. Part I 16:22.

And “where I get the idea about anything other than human” is from the video and also based on Judaism

As per the documents that actually define him, the messiah is not 'divine' in any sense, but just a normal human being.

A while ago I watched a video title the “Jewish Messiah is divine” and it was made by a Jewish person. So I figured that’s standard of what Judaism believes

That is the vox populi, no? When appealing to the general viewership, correct nomenclature is sometimes cast to the wind.

And y'ridat haddorot is true but how is it possible when the Torah and Jewish traditions are the same now as it was thousands of years ago?

Maybe lack of faith over the years.

The simple way of approaching this subject is that each subsequent generation is another removed from the Divine Revelation.

 

[Koichos]

Deuteronomy 4:36-40

36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.

37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day.

39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, for ever.

Omitting the crucial definite article 'the' from translations (both here and in the parallel passage of the Prophets) considerably reduces the impact of the statement:

וְיָֽדַעְתָּ֣ הַיּ֗וֹם וַֽהֲשֵֽׁבֹתָ֘ אֶל־לְבָבֶךָ֒ כִּ֤י יְדֹוָה֙ ה֣וּא הָֽאֱלֹקִ֔ים בַּשָּׁמַ֣יִם מִמַּ֔עַל וְעַל־הָאָ֖רֶץ מִתָּ֑חַת אֵ֖ין עֽוֹד׃​

You must know this today and consider it in your mind that Adοnai—He is the God in Heaven above and on the Earth below: there is no one else! (Parashat ‘Va'ethannan’ 4:39)

---

:לְמַ֗עַן דַּ֤עַת כׇּל־עַמֵּ֣י הָאָ֔רֶץ כִּ֥י יְדֹוָ֖ה ה֣וּא הָֽאֱלֹקִ֑ים אֵ֖ין עֽוֹד...​

...in order that all the nations of the Earth know that Adοnai—He is the God: there is no one else! (M'lachim Part I 8:60)

Actually, 4:35 (four verses earlier) is even more explicit:

:אַתָּה֙ הָרְאֵ֣תָ לָדַ֔עַת כִּ֥י יְדֹוָ֖ה ה֣וּא הָֽאֱלֹקִ֑ים אֵ֥ין ע֖וֹד מִלְּבַדּֽוֹ​

You have been shown these things so you should know that Adοnai—He is the God: there is no one else apart from him!

And the Scriptural basis for Ramba"m’s third foundational principle

:אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתבָּרַך שְׁמוֹ אֵינוּ גוּף וְלֹא יַשִּׂיגֻהוּ מַשִּׂיגֵי הַגּוּף, וְאֵין לוֹ שׁוּם דִּמיוֹן כְּלָל​

I firmly believe that the Creator – may His Name be blessed – is not a body and that He is not subject to any physical phenomena, and that He does not have any form at all.

is found there as well, in verses 12 and 15:

:וַיְדַבֵּ֧ר יְדֹוָ֛ה אֲלֵיכֶ֖ם מִתּ֣וֹךְ הָאֵ֑שׁ ק֤וֹל דְּבָרִים֙ אַתֶּ֣ם שֹׁמְעִ֔ים וּתְמוּנָ֛ה אֵֽינְכֶ֥ם רֹאִ֖ים זֽוּלָתִ֥י קֽוֹל​

Adοnai spoke to you from the heart of the fire; it was [only] the sound of words that you were hearing but you saw no visible representation [lit., 'picture']—there was only a sound. (4:12)

---

:וְנִשְׁמַרְתֶּ֥ם מְאֹ֖ד לְנַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶ֖ם כִּ֣י לֹ֤א רְאִיתֶם֙ כׇּל־תְּמוּנָ֔ה בְּי֗וֹם דִּבֶּ֨ר יְדֹוָ֧ה אֲלֵיכֶ֛ם בְּחֹרֵ֖ב מִתּ֥וֹךְ הָאֵֽשׁ​

So protect your souls [i.e., your lives] very well, because you did not see any visible representation [lit., 'picture'] on the day that Adοnai, your God, spoke to you at Hοrev from the heart of the fire. (4:15)

 

[MMS]

Omitting the crucial definite article 'the' from translations (both here and in the parallel passage of the Prophets) considerably reduces the impact of the statement:


:אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתבָּרַך שְׁמוֹ אֵינוּ גוּף וְלֹא יַשִּׂיגֻהוּ מַשִּׂיגֵי הַגּוּף, וְאֵין לוֹ שׁוּם דִּמיוֹן כְּלָל
I firmly believe that the Creator – may His Name be blessed – is not a body and that He is not subject to any physical phenomena, and that He does not have any form at all.

i definitely agree with you now about the definite article

but even more so this statement, is not a body

the barbarians would put corpses on towers to let birds eat them. Its a strange fire that to me is the origin of Goliaths confusion and also "headless" horsemen (this is why pharoah considered the vulture as an upper bound and the serpent as a lower bound)

Towers of Silence

Several large towers stand like silos in the rough landscape. You don't know exactly how old they are, but their solemn architecture suggests a somber purpose. The Towers of Silence stand in the Northern Badlands, a prominent landmark in the mostly regular landscape. The towers themselves are...

willowdale.fandom.com

leaving egypt would mean seeing past both its arguable the vulture is more subtle than the serpent because it does not bite or kill to eat carrion

Genesis 3:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

to her husband or to "another"?

the statement "taking a rib from the man" while he slept gets morbid from this lense

Spoiler

but how amazing is it that Mowgli trapped the Tiger with his own fire. I always wondered how tigers ended up in Russia of all places

 

[DoubleClutch]

Trying to make deductions on the basis of a translation—of texts that are classed as s'farim ħitzοnim ('external [i.e., heretical] books'), because some of the concepts they touch upon are inconsistent with Jewish theology and/or culture, so were excluded from the Hebrew cannon—is what he spent the entire presentation doing.

Just take a look at how the 72 Jewish Elders incorporated into the Septuagint (the translation made for King Ptolemy II in the 3rd century BCE) the first alteration,

• אֱלֹקִים בָּרָא בְּרֵאשִׁית elοhim bara b'reshyt ('God created at the beginning...') rather than
• בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹקִים b'reshyt bara elοhim ('At the beginning of God's creating...'),

reversing the syntax of the Tοrah’s opening words (in B'reshyt 1:1a) in case the 'multiple powers' heretics should say that בְּרֵאשִׁית b'reshyt created אֱלֹקִים elοhim!


There was, and is. (See the first, second and third of the Ramba"m’s Thirteen Principles into which he condensed the essence of Judaism.)


See above.


ALL our kings - from Sha'ul right down to Tzidḳiyyahu - were messiahs. מִִשְׁחָָה mishħah ('smearing', anointment) was the name given to the coronation ceremony of the ancient Jewish kings. A מָָשִִֽׁיחַַ mashiyaħ ('messiah', a person who has been smeared with oil) is thus a person who was מָָָשֽׁוּחַַ mashu'aħ ('smeared') with the שֶֶֽׁמֶֶֶן מִִשְׁחַַת קֺֽדֶשׁ shemmen mishħat ḳοdesh ('smearing of sanctity oil') in accordance with the Tοrah’s instructions given in Parashat ‘Ki Tissa’ (Sh'mοt) 30:22-33.

Three Jewish kings are explicitly called by the title מָָשִֽׁיחַַ mashiyaħ:

• King Sha'ul was a messiah (Sh'muël Part I 12:3,5; 24:7[x2],11; 26:9,11,16,23; Sh'muël Part II 1:14,16)
• King David was a messiah (Sh'muël Part II 19:22, 22:51, 23:1; Tillim 18:51)​
• King Yοshiyyahu was a messiah (Eichah 4:20; compare D.H. Part II 35:25)​

And God refers explicitly to His messiahs (note, again: plural form) in both Tillim 105:15 and D.H. Part I 16:22.


As per the documents that actually define him, the messiah is not 'divine' in any sense, but just a normal human being.


That is the vox populi, no? When appealing to the general viewership, correct nomenclature is sometimes cast to the wind.


The simple way of approaching this subject is that each subsequent generation is another removed from the Divine Revelation.

Ok so I’ll put it like this, is the “ancient of days” or son of man the “messiah” Jewish currently are waiting for to come back and rule?

Isn’t it only ONE individual who will be a messiah strictly from the Davidic line?



Here’s a good video breaking it down using scriptures from a Jewish perspective

It’s pretty straightforward

My personal opinion regarding how Jewish thought or interpretation has been “stunted” or not reached the same level of “old times” is partly a reaction to Jesus and the success of Christianity and what Christians preach

And also part of it is trying to understand how and why things in life are (strictly from a Jewish life experience and POV) and deciphering all this through the scriptures. And then also trying to survive.

You could say most Jews are preoccupied with other things than someone like you or a typical Rabbi.

And then there’s Islam and Muslims they have to worry about

The world is way different now than in the past but the core scriptures are the same and people aren’t any dumber

We all have more distractions however

And if I can be biased I’d say a Christian with the same knowledge of the Torah as you for example would MAYBE have a better (more well rounded) understand of the Religion

Maybe you should study the gospels and Christianity

That could be the key.... even if you dont believe it.

All I know is, the more I started learning about Islam, it took my understanding of Christianity and religion to another level.

And if I ever learn HEBREW, watch out