We are living in a world of illusion

[Koichos]

surely we are all sons of God

And yet, the Torah (D'vorim 14:1) specifically describes Yisroʾel as בָּנִים לַה׳ אֱלֹקֵיכֶם ('sons of Hashem your ʾAlohim'), something that it says of no other nation.

 

[DoubleClutch]

And yet, the Torah (D'vorim 14:1) specifically describes Yisroʾel as בָּנִים לַה׳ אֱלֹקֵיכֶם ('sons of Hashem your ʾAlohim'), something that it says of no other nation.

yea you’re sons of God especially if acknowledged the Father

“Gods people” is defined by those who choose to follow God.

Even “chosen” people must choose God at the end of the day

And God wouldn’t reject anyone who wants to be part of Yisroʾel especially seeing how those who historically are “his people” constantly reject his Son.

I think God just doesn’t like when people he reveals himself to reject him. They should know better and have no excuse.

Jesus came to save the lost tribe of Israel (who should’ve accepted him based on prophecy/common sense), but instead ended up dying and “saving” everyone anyways (which he would’ve ultimately done if the 1st century Jews accepted him as messiah to begin with).

but he obviously knew they wouldn’t accept him as it’s all Gods plan

Do you think God forces anyone to be part of
Yisroʾel?

Everyone has a choice.

You can’t be born into a religion. But those born in that region of the world to hear Gods message and experience the true religion had to be special and “lucky” to say the least

That said, there’s no religion specifically for the Jew or Arab (which aren’t races to begin with) but the people of ancient North east Africa/Levant are just a coincidental part of the story in the Bible which all 3 major religions believe in.

The Bible says all humans are “sons of God” seeing how God made man in his image before there was even any idea of “religion”.

Those who choose live their lives to please their “Father” fit the description of being a “Son” and deserve everything special that comes with being a good “son”.

Jesus is the best example of that we’ve seen on Earth obviously because he didn’t sin and he followed Gods will 100%.

When you say “Father” and “Son” in reference to God and man we aren’t talking literally are we? @Koichos

 

[MMS]

@DoubleClutch

that gorem philosophy applies to Jesus for @Koichos nothing that you say will likely make him see Jesus as anything but Yeshu or Yushke that he has been taught

to him, he is a character that is created on purpose to deceive

yet at the same time, that same action happens throughout the old testament via illeism

a great deal of it is "put together" to say the least. Remember the first temple was destroyed by God and he delivered them unto the Babylonians whom have tampered with the message which lead to the Second Temple and so forth.

There is more than meets the eye with the scriptures

 

[MMS]

@Sccit
Baal Cycle - Wikipedia

The beginning of the story of the battle between Baʿal and Yam is lost, but we first hear of Kothar-wa-Khasis, the craftsman of the gods being summoned to El, who resides at the confluence of the rivers and the two oceans. El tells him to build a palace for Yam, and to do so quickly in case Yam should take hostile action. When Athtar hears of this, she takes a torch down, the purpose of which is not known due to the damaged text, but she is confronted by Shapash, who tells her that El is to bestow royal power on Yam, and so opposition is useless. Athtar then complains that he has no place or court, and that he now fears defeat at the hands of Yam. Shapash suggests the reason to be that he has no wife, perhaps meaning he is too young.

The text following is lost, but resumes with El sitting in his banquet hall. Here he is addressed by the other deities, who complain that Yam is being put to shame, though the damaged text makes the reason unclear, though it is clear the reason is connected to his palace. The gods threaten that unless this situation is resolved they will wreak destruction. El gives them curdled milk, apparently a mark of esteem. El calls that his son's name hitherto has been Yaw, a personal name. El then proclaims that his name should be 'darling of El'. However, he informs Yam that he would have to drive his rival Baʿal from his throne and the seat of his dominion. Following this there is a banquet.

When the story resumes, Kothar-wa-Khasis has arrived under the sea and tells Yam that he has risen presumptuously to his position, and that Baʿal cannot stand idly by. He threatens that Yam will be destroyed by a magic weapon. Yam then sends word to El, on the mount of Lel, El's abode, demanding the surrender of Baʿal and his henchmen. However, Baʿal, upon hearing this on the mount of Lel attacks the envoys, though Anat and Athtart hold him back.

When the story resumes, Baʿal has already started to battle Yam, but is in despair due to the power of Yam, and the fierce sea-creatures. Kothar-wa-Khasis assures Baʿal that he will be victorious and will win a kingdom without end, and fetches two divine clubs for Baʿal's use. He gives them magic names, and strikes Yam the first two times himself. Baʿal then drags out Yam and finishes him off. Then Athtart tells Baʿal to scatter his rival, which he does, and then he cries out that Yam is dead, and that he shall be King.

We are living in a world of illusion
We are living in a world of illusion

Spoiler

 

[Sccit]

@DoubleClutch

that gorem philosophy applies to Jesus for @Koichos nothing that you say will likely make him see Jesus as anything but Yeshu or Yushke that he has been taught

to him, he is a character that is created on purpose to deceive

yet at the same time, that same action happens throughout the old testament via illeism

a great deal of it is "put together" to say the least. Remember the first temple was destroyed by God and he delivered them unto the Babylonians whom have tampered with the message which lead to the Second Temple and so forth.

There is more than meets the eye with the scriptures

THE CONTRADICTIONS BETWEEN NEW TESTAMENT AND OLD TESTAMENT ARE WAY TOO NUMEROUS FOR BOTH BOOKS TO BE DIVINE.. AND SINCE CHRISTIANS ALREAD BELIEVE THE OLD TESTAMENT TO BE DIVINE, THERE IS YOUR ANSWER.

 

[MMS]

THE CONTRADICTIONS BETWEEN NEW TESTAMENT AND OLD TESTAMENT ARE WAY TOO NUMEROUS FOR BOTH BOOKS TO BE DIVINE.. AND SINCE CHRISTIANS ALREAD BELIEVE THE OLD TESTAMENT TO BE DIVINE, THERE IS YOUR ANSWER.

the heaven and the earth are both divine

you dont need a book to see that, what you need is a book to remind you of it

From my perspective, both testaments are divine but also are the words of men. God can speak through man but man is still man and his tendencies still become manifest in his words.

 

[Sccit]

the heaven and the earth are both divine

you dont need a book to see that, what you need is a book to remind you of it

From my perspective, both testaments are divine but also are the words of men. God can speak through man but man is still man and his tendencies still become manifest in his words.

OLD TESTAMENT IS THE WORD OF GOD


SO DO U CONSIDER YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN OR CATHOLIC??

 

[DoubleClutch]

THE CONTRADICTIONS BETWEEN NEW TESTAMENT AND OLD TESTAMENT ARE WAY TOO NUMEROUS FOR BOTH BOOKS TO BE DIVINE.. AND SINCE CHRISTIANS ALREAD BELIEVE THE OLD TESTAMENT TO BE DIVINE, THERE IS YOUR ANSWER.

Give the words and actions attributed to Jesus in the New Testament that contradict the Old Testament

 

[Sccit]

Give the words and actions attributed to Jesus in the New Testament that contradict the Old Testament

ILL START OFF WIT THE OBVIOUS ONE

Old Testament: “Show no pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.” – Deuteronomy 19:21

Jesus: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” – Matthew 5:38–39



LOL

 

[MMS]

ILL START OFF WIT THE OBVIOUS ONE

Old Testament: “Show no pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.” – Deuteronomy 19:21

Jesus: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” – Matthew 5:38–39



LOL

Bakenranef - Wikipedia

Most writers, however, agree in stating that once a disease, which horribly disfigured the body, broke out over Egypt; that king Bocchoris, seeking a remedy, consulted the oracle of Hammon, and was bidden to cleanse his realm, and to convey into some foreign land this race detested by the gods. The people, who had been collected after diligent search, finding themselves left in a desert, sat for the most part in a stupor of grief, till one of the exiles, Moses by name, warned them not to look for any relief from God or man, forsaken as they were of both, but to trust to themselves, taking for their heaven-sent leader that man who should first help them to be quit of their present misery. They agreed, and in utter ignorance began to advance at random. Nothing, however, distressed them so much as the scarcity of water, and they had sunk ready to perish in all directions over the plain, when a herd of wild asses was seen to retire from their pasture to a rock shaded by trees. Moses followed them, and, guided by the appearance of a grassy spot, discovered an abundant spring of water. This furnished relief. After a continuous journey for six days, on the seventh they possessed themselves of a country, from which they expelled the inhabitants, and in which they founded a city and a temple.

— Tacitus, Histories, 5.3

Moses did slay an egyptian and is hiding behind his own words in the OT by various means that ive already shown to @Koichos and @DoubleClutch in this thread and others

in other words, something is afoot

 

[DoubleClutch]

ILL START OFF WIT THE OBVIOUS ONE

Old Testament: “Show no pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.” – Deuteronomy 19:21

Jesus: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.” – Matthew 5:38–39



LOL

in each verse what’s the context? Who is talking to who? Under what circumstances?

one is talking about War (a type of religious war justified by God) in a time of battle when Gods promise to his people was to be fulfilled. You’re reading the stories of what happened. That shouldn’t be applied to your everyday life today

Even in modern day times of war (which aren’t even really justified most the time) I doubt any soldiers fighting their enemy would turn their cheeks when people are shooting at them or trying to blow them up

Now speaking on the second scripture regarding how we (everyone like me and you) should live our daily lives with forgiveness and love for our neighbors:

if you choose to disagree with Jesus that’s up to you. You don’t have to be that type of person, but there’s obviously consequences of your actions

even the Ten commandments says:

Love the Lord with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is Love your neighbor as yourself. ''

I’m guessing this still includes enemies. And probably justifies “turning the other cheek” because after all that’s how I’d want to be treated if the situation was reversed and I was the
“Evil one” doing wrong . Thats how God would show forgiveness, mercy, love, and patience toward sinners


you see these are rules of daily life to live by, not considering war and other situations that are unique to a specific time in Bible history

maybe Jesus here is teaching to make distinction and prevent people like you from taking some OT scripture out of context and using it wrong in modern day life

in this case you are just trying to prove a point and not understand the Bible you’re just taking random scriptures looking to find contradictions and not understanding the larger story or situations at hand.

nice try though

How about you give a scripture that actually matters theologically?

try again

 

[Sccit]

in each verse what’s the context? Who is talking to who? Under what circumstances?

one is talking about War (a type of religious war justified by God) in a time of battle when Gods promise to his people was to be fulfilled. You’re reading the stories of what happened. That shouldn’t be applied to your everyday life today

Even in modern day times of war (which aren’t even really justified most the time) I doubt any soldiers fighting their enemy would turn their cheeks when people are shooting at them or trying to blow them up

Now speaking on the second scripture regarding how we (everyone like me and you) should live our daily lives with forgiveness and love for our neighbors:

if you choose to disagree with Jesus that’s up to you. You don’t have to be that type of person, but there’s obviously consequences of your actions

even the Ten commandments says:

Love the Lord with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is Love your neighbor as yourself. ''

I’m guessing this still includes enemies. And probably justifies “turning the other cheek” because after all that’s how I’d want to be treated if the situation was reversed and I was the
“Evil one” doing wrong . Thats how God would show forgiveness, mercy, love, and patience toward sinners


you see these are rules of daily life to live by, not considering war and other situations that are unique to a specific time in Bible history

maybe Jesus here is teaching to make distinction and prevent people like you from taking some OT scripture out of context and using it wrong in modern day life

in this case you are just trying to prove a point and not understand the Bible you’re just taking random scriptures looking to find contradictions and not understanding the larger story or situations at hand.

nice try though

How about you give a scripture that actually matters theologically?

try again

LOL U TRYIN TOO HARD, BUT SINCE U WANA PLAY THIS GAME LETS KEEP GOIN:


Old Testament: ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.” – Leviticus 20:10

Jesus famously ignored this command when they brought the woman caught in adultery to him:

Jesus: “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground….”Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.'” – John 8:3-11


THE NEW TESTAMENT IS NOT DIVINE.. IT WAS EVEN WRITTEN IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE. TOO MANY ERRORS TO NOT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY MAN.

 

[MMS]

LOL U TRYIN TOO HARD, BUT SINCE U WANA PLAY THIS GAME LETS KEEP GOIN:


Old Testament: ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.” – Leviticus 20:10

Jesus famously ignored this command when they brought the woman caught in adultery to him:

Jesus: “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground….”Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.'” – John 8:3-11


THE NEW TESTAMENT IS NOT DIVINE.. IT WAS EVEN WRITTEN IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE. TOO MANY ERRORS TO NOT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY MAN.

the earth who tasted the blood of abel

While the Israelites/Hebrews were captives in Egypt, Moses killed an Egyptian who was striking a Hebrew, for which offense Pharaoh sought to kill Moses. Moses therefore fled from Egypt and arrived in Midian. One day while he sat by a well, Reuel's daughters came to water their father's flocks. Other shepherds arrived and drove the girls away so they could water their own flocks first. Moses defended the girls and watered their flocks. Upon their return home their father asked them, "How is it that you have come home so early today?" The girls answered, "An Egyptian rescued us from the shepherds; he even drew water for us and watered the flock." "Where is he then?" Reuel asked them. "Why did you leave the man? Invite him for supper to break bread." Reuel then gave Moses Zipporah as his wife (Exodus 2:11–21).

It became, however, generally accepted that he had seven names: "Reuel", "Jether", "Jethro", "Hobab", "Heber", "Keni" (comp. Judges i. 16, iv. 11), and "Putiel"; Eleazar's father-in-law (Ex. vi. 25) being identified with Jethro by interpreting his name either as "he who abandoned idolatry" or as "who fattened calves for the sake of sacrifices to the idol".[15][16]

According to some modern scholars, "Jethro" was title meaning "his Excellency" and the actual name was Reuel

somehow "Reuel" turns into his Father Jethro and then also gets renamed to Hobab

Hobab was Moses' father-in-law (Judges 4:11)[196] and the son of Moses's father-in-law (Numbers 10:29), Jethro. The relevant part of Numbers 10:29 reads: "And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Reuel the Midianite, Moses' father-in-law". Reuel (or Raguel) and Jethro may have been different persons from different narratives.[197] That of Judges 4:11 reads: "Now Heber the Kenite had severed himself from the Kenites, even from the children of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses". Moses invited Hobab to take part in the Exodus journey into the Promised Land, wanting to make use of his local knowledge, but Hobab preferred to return home to Midian (Numbers 10:29–31). Briefly, Hobab, Reuel/Raguel, and Jethro were all Moses' father-in-law

 

[Koichos]

Do you think God forces anyone to be part of
Yisroʾel?

Hashem does not demand it of you and we sure as hell (forgive the pun) do not want you to unless you are 100% sincere and committed. Becoming a Jew is an arduous process and one where the person undergoing conversion must be rigorously tested.

Everyone has a choice.

Nobody expects you to convert to Judaism and, to be brutally frank, I do not think you would last five minutes as a Jew.

The Bible says all humans are “sons of God”

Not all humans—only all Jews.

:וְאָמַרְתָּ אֶל־פַּרְעֹה כֹּה אָמַר ה׳ בְּנִי בְכֹרִי יִשְׂרָאֵל: וָאֹמַר אֵלֶיךָ שַׁלַּח אֶת־בְּנִי וְיַעַבְדֵנִי וַתְּמָאֵן לְשַׁלְּחוֹ הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי הֹרֵג אֶת־בִּנְךָ בְּכֹרֶךָ​

You are to say to the Parʿoh: "This is Hashem's declaration: Yisroʾel is My 'son'—in fact, My 'first-born'! I told you to allow My 'son' to leave so 'he' can serve Me, and if you persist in refusing to let 'him' leave, I will kill your son—your first-born!" (Sh'moth 4:22)

In Sh'moth 4:22 Hashem refers to the entire nation of Yisroʾel as 'His son—His first-born' (which also accounts for Hosheʿa's reference to the Exodus in Hosheʿa 11:1), but the verse I previously mentioned (D'vorim 14:1) uses plural forms בָּנִים אַתֶּם לַה׳ אֱלֹקֵיכֶם '[All of] you are sons of Hashem your (pl.) ʾAlohim'—this verse is therefore speaking of ALL the members of the nation of Yisroʾel as individuals. As for Sh'moth 4:22, the 'father' of an entire nation can only be understood in a non-literal sense, and the same applies to D'vorim 14:1.

seeing how God made man in his image before there was even any idea of “religion”.

Maybe He did, but in the context of this statement that is irrelevant.

When you say “Father” and “Son” in reference to God and man we aren’t talking literally are we? @Koichos

Not in the sense that He is anyone's biological father (!חַס וְשָׁלוֹם), but as verse 2 goes on to explain: כִּי עַם קָדוֹשׁ אַתָּה לַה׳ אֱלֹקֶיךָ ('because you are a nation set apart for Hashem your ʾAlohim').

 

[DoubleClutch]

LOL U TRYIN TOO HARD, BUT SINCE U WANA PLAY THIS GAME LETS KEEP GOIN:


Old Testament: ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.” – Leviticus 20:10

Jesus famously ignored this command when they brought the woman caught in adultery to him:

Jesus: “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground….”Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.'” – John 8:3-11


THE NEW TESTAMENT IS NOT DIVINE.. IT WAS EVEN WRITTEN IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE. TOO MANY ERRORS TO NOT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY MAN.

“THE NEW TESTAMENT IS NOT DIVINE!”

This seems to be your own personal gripe or selling point to whatever religion or alternate philosophy you’re advocating for in contrast to Judaism and the God of the Bible

If you don’t understand the difference in the OLD testament period and today (after Jesus) maybe you need to go back and read the entire Bible from the beginning and take a look at how it all is connected and works together.

if you’d rather cherry pick the Bible looking specifically for scriptures that appear contradictory on surface level then obviously you’ll get what you’re looking for.

Besides, the only people who are stuck in the OT way of teaching/thinking are the Jews today

how about you just believe in Jesus, his teachings and message alone which is enough for a first step. Read the New Testament. Then from this perspective you can go back and revisit the “Old testament” with more knowledge and guidance from the Holy Spirit

As I always tell @Koichos

“lean not on your own understanding”

You shouldn’t even listen to me necessarily.

What do I know other than my own personal perspective