Tyronn Lue basically told on Bron during that ABC interview last night

[Lifer11]

The Cavs were not a laughing stock. They were a solid middle-of-the-pack franchise. They weren't the Clippers or more recently, the Bobcats.

And Kobe was groomed and earned his spot. He never cried his way to LA, it was already decided that he would be drafted then traded to LA if he fell to Hornets. This was a team that had Nick-at-Nite, Eddie, Mr. Flow-on, Elden Campbell...then Magic re-retired, and tried to come back when he found out they were gonna sign Shaq. Kobe was like 6th-7th in order on that team, as a rookie, when HS (especially Gs) weren't the hoopla they are now. And Shaq was the leader (especially after getting everyone else shipped off) and Kobe played his role until it was evident that he wasn't a #2 anymore. And a clear sign of coaching, Kobe reinvented his game like 5 different times.

Lebron never had the luxury because he was given a franchise right out the gate, to do whatever he pleased. He never had to earn anything, because right from the beginning, what Lebron said, goes. You forget that they actually tried building teams around him, and it went to sh!t because he could change him game up to allow for it.

Lebron was given a franchise right out the gate cause the team was bad and had been for some time before he got there, and 20 5 and 5 in his rookie season earned it for him. They had 5 straight dismal seasons, and they've never won a championship. Middle of the pack might be giving them too much credit, and when he got there they certainly weren't a middle of the pack franchise or they wouldn't of had the #1 pick. They've been to the playoffs 19 times in 46 seasons and 6 of them were with Lebron. They've only been to the finals twice both times with Lebron. They don't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the Lakers, Celtics, and the Bulls which are the teams I was comparing them to in order to make a point that Lebron never had anywhere near the support of Magic, Bird, Jordan, and Kobe, and certainly not right out the gate or organically like they did. Lebron had to go to the Heat to get real support and Wade was already on a steep decline and Bosh proved to be a really good player but nothing more.

And Kobe crying his way to the Lakers is called hyperbole, I don't really know what happened behind the scenes, I just remember at the time the rumor was Kobe forced his way to the Lakers cause he didn't want to play for Charlotte.

I disagree with Kobe re-inventing his game considering by his 5th season he was a great scorer and soon after that became a great defender and that pretty much sums up his game at the prime of his career.

And HS players aren't any kind of hoopla now cause they're not even allowed to go straight to the NBA right out of HS anymore. When Kobe did it was actually the peak of it happening, with Garnett getting drafted in 95, Kobe in 96, Jermaine O'neal in 96, and McGrady in 97, the next great HS player was Amare in 02 and Lebron in 03.

And the teams they tried to build around Lebron actually never went to shyt, but when your 2nd and 3rd option are Mo Williams and Ilguaskas what do you expect to happen? And he took them to the chip against a much better Spurs team, and made them a perennial contender. Granted the East is nowhere near as good as the West, when Kobe had roughly the same level of talent around him the Lakers either missed the playoffs or were an 8 seed.

 

[mbewane]

They had a short run of being a good team, they were awful when Lebron was drafted and were never considered a good NBA franchise and rightfully so.

And as for Kobe I should've specified the timeline, but I didn't think it mattered much considering the Lakers are hands down one of the greatest franchises in professional sports, and Kobe didn't win anything until Phil got there anyway and he was the 2nd option. Revisionist history likes to paint Shaq and Kobe as 1a and 1b, but anyone who followed the NBA at that time knows Shaq was the clear cut leader of that team. Lebron never had the luxury of being able to play behind someone else.

Just wanted to qualify your claims, it's cool to make fun of Cleveland but really the Cavs are no worse than other middle of the pack teams who never won a championship. Meanig like half the NBA. And obviously saying Kobe "cried his way" to play for PJ and with Shaq is plain wrong.

MJ didn't have the luxury to play behind someone else either, just like most NBA superstars. Lebron knew his limitations, so he joined Riley and Wade. He then chose to go back to Cleveland and pick his teamates and coach, so the whole "the team that drafted him sucks" narrative makes no sense whatsoever now, even less so that he's choosing his teammates and coach.

 

[Osmosis]

His team's chance to actually win said finals. Not that tough to make it when there aren't any other good teams left in the east. Pacers and heat suck and the Bulls have issues too.

How is he sabotaging their chances in the finals when he is the reason they are in the finals?

 

[Lifer11]

Just wanted to qualify your claims, it's cool to make fun of Cleveland but really the Cavs are no worse than other middle of the pack teams who never won a championship. Meanig like half the NBA. And obviously saying Kobe "cried his way" to play for PJ and with Shaq is plain wrong.

MJ didn't have the luxury to play behind someone else either, just like most NBA superstars. Lebron knew his limitations, so he joined Riley and Wade. He then chose to go back to Cleveland and pick his teamates and coach, so the whole "the team that drafted him sucks" narrative makes no sense whatsoever now, even less so that he's choosing his teammates and coach.

MJ had the luxury of playing for the greatest coach of all time and 2 hall of famers in Pippen and Rodman. Pippen is one of the most underrated players of all time, people like to overlook that Jordan didn't win until Pippen got there. Pippen finished 3rd in MVP voting during Jordan's fake retirement, they were 30-5 at the All-Star break and finished 55-27, Pippen also won MVP of the All-Star game and a lot of people thought he deserved MVP of the league but some off court shyt lost it for him.

Isaacson: MJ's year off gave Pip time to shine

I'm not making fun of Cleveland I'm speaking facts, middle of the pack is very generous. They've only won their division 4 times, 3 of them with Lebron the other time was in 1975-76. They went to the Finals twice, both times with Lebron. He chose to go to Miami to get what all the other greats had, a great franchise with great players. He chose to go back to Cleveland cause of young talent, the freedom to do whatever the hell he wants, and the hopes to bring them their first chip. 17 teams have at least 1 chip, 13 teams have none; the Cavs, Clippers, Grizzlies, Jazz, Magic, Nets, Nuggets, Hornets, Pacers, Pelicans, Raptors, Suns, T-Wolves, that's not middle of the pack, besides the Jazz those are all horrible franchises historically.

Not that this list is infallible but they have the Cavs ranked as the 24th NBA franchise of all time.
All 30 NBA Franchises Statistically Ranked By All-Time Greatness

This one has them 23rd
Ranking Most Successful NBA Franchises Ever

And AGAIN, I said Kobe crying his way to the Lakers was hyperbole, that means I was exaggerating. The rumor at the time was that Kobe forced his way to the Lakers though. It seems you overlooked that in my last post. Just thought I'd CLARIFY that for you.

I also only said Kobe had the luxury of playing behind someone, but Magic also had Kareem, even though he stepped up in the Finals, he didn't have any real pressure. No one expected him to win it with Kareem getting injured during the Finals. For Magic's 2nd chip he had Bob Mcadoo (and Kareem still) another Hall of Fame player, he had James Worthy (and Mcadoo and Kareem) another Hall of Famer for his next chip, Worthy even won Finals MVP in 88.

All the other greats played with at least 1 other great. Lebron had a little more than 1 season with Wade close to his prime, other than that he hasn't had anywhere near the level of talent around him as the other players I mentioned in my prior posts.

 

[mbewane]

MJ had the luxury of playing for the greatest coach of all time and 2 hall of famers in Pippen and Rodman. Pippen is one of the most underrated players of all time, people like to overlook that Jordan didn't win until Pippen got there. Pippen finished 3rd in MVP voting during Jordan's fake retirement, they were 30-5 at the All-Star break and finished 55-27, Pippen also won MVP of the All-Star game and a lot of people thought he deserved MVP of the league but some off court shyt lost it for him.

Isaacson: MJ's year off gave Pip time to shine

I'm not making fun of Cleveland I'm speaking facts, middle of the pack is very generous. They've only won their division 4 times, 3 of them with Lebron the other time was in 1975-76. They went to the Finals twice, both times with Lebron. He chose to go to Miami to get what all the other greats had, a great franchise with great players. He chose to go back to Cleveland cause of young talent, the freedom to do whatever the hell he wants, and the hopes to bring them their first chip. 17 teams have at least 1 chip, 13 teams have none; the Cavs, Clippers, Grizzlies, Jazz, Magic, Nets, Nuggets, Hornets, Pacers, Pelicans, Raptors, Suns, T-Wolves, that's not middle of the pack, besides the Jazz those are all horrible franchises historically.

Not that this list is infallible but they have the Cavs ranked as the 24th NBA franchise of all time.
All 30 NBA Franchises Statistically Ranked By All-Time Greatness

This one has them 23rd
Ranking Most Successful NBA Franchises Ever

And AGAIN, I said Kobe crying his way to the Lakers was hyperbole, that means I was exaggerating. The rumor at the time was that Kobe forced his way to the Lakers though. It seems you overlooked that in my last post. Just thought I'd CLARIFY that for you.

I also only said Kobe had the luxury of playing behind someone, but Magic also had Kareem, even though he stepped up in the Finals, he didn't have any real pressure. No one expected him to win it with Kareem getting injured during the Finals. For Magic's 2nd chip he had Bob Mcadoo (and Kareem still) another Hall of Fame player, he had James Worthy (and Mcadoo and Kareem) another Hall of Famer for his next chip, Worthy even won Finals MVP in 88.

All the other greats played with at least 1 other great. Lebron had a little more than 1 season with Wade close to his prime, other than that he hasn't had anywhere near the level of talent around him as the other players I mentioned in my prior posts.

Phil wasn't there when MJ got there, and Pip grew into that role (thanks most probably to MJ making his teammates better ). Phil wasn't "Phil" when he took over Chicago, granted he had won NBa titles as a player and coached in the CBA but at that point he wasn't the legend he is now known as, so using that as an argument is kin dof a hind-sight fallacy. It's well known Jordan had to be convinced about the triangle, it wasn't no smooth sailing. But MJ and the Bulls let Phil do his thing. You don't have to convince me about Pip's magnitude, I was watching those games. But I also saw Pip play as a rookie, and he was far from being the Pip we know. We all remember the migraines too. He grew into that All-time great status we now know him for, and in the meantime it was MJ carrying the Bulls (which the knock against him in his early years : scoring but not making his teammates better early on).

I wouldn't call the teams listed as not winning the championship "horrible" franchises. Suns and Pacers have both been to the Finals and were consistently in the playoffs for years, Magic too, Hornets were a good team for all of the 90s, Grizzlies post Vancouver are regulars in the playoffs, etc. Hardly "horrible" franchises I would say. That list is like you said, not infaillible, because it puts a lot of weight on winning division for ex, so if you were in the Central Division in the 90s you have less luck than if you were in the Atlantic, for example. But all lists have flaws.

I didn't overlook what you said in your previous post, just wanted to put some facts. Kobe got there before Phil, and before Shaq signed. Indeed, he said he didn't want to play in Charlotte. Lakers recognized talent and took the huge gamble (this was one year after KG came from HS, and his first season wasn't exactly quieting all the doubters) of trading for him.

Bron chose not to do like Kobe (or like ) and force a trade to another team when he was drafted, good for him. He resigned with Cleveland after his rookie contract was up, knowing how the management worked and its limitations, good for him. He wanted a ring and got with Wade and Riley to get one, good for him. He then decided to go back to Cleveland and put together this current team, good for him.

If Bron wanted to play for a great organization, he could've left Cleveland multiple times. He could've gone to the Bulls, he could've stayed in Miami, and so on and so forth. He DECIDED multiple times to stay or go back to Cleveland, good for him, but the case of "Lebron's unlucky he was drafted by the Cavs and hasn't had the luxury of playing with other all times greats" can't be made anymore. He could've when his rookie contract was up, or he could've stayed in Miami.

 

[Teko]

Not about money moron.. Look at Tiger Woods & A-Rod.. Both got more money than Lebron but there reps & legacy is done...

Lebron right now is looked at as a 4-time losing, whining, coach firing, terrible GM'ing bytch

Looked at by who? Why should we care? If you don't win the championship, you lost. Every player who has ever played in the NBA has lost more than 4 times - Bill Russel has the fewest losses.

 

[BXKingPin82]

Kobe didnt "cry" his way to the Lakers

Jerry West made it clear they were going to get him any way they possibly could

 

[ItzDaKiing]

Looked at by who? Why should we care? If you don't win the championship, you lost. Every player who has ever played in the NBA has lost more than 4 times - Bill Russel has the fewest losses.

You're a moron.

 

[Lifer11]

Phil wasn't there when MJ got there, and Pip grew into that role (thanks most probably to MJ making his teammates better ). Phil wasn't "Phil" when he took over Chicago, granted he had won NBa titles as a player and coached in the CBA but at that point he wasn't the legend he is now known as, so using that as an argument is kin dof a hind-sight fallacy. It's well known Jordan had to be convinced about the triangle, it wasn't no smooth sailing. But MJ and the Bulls let Phil do his thing. You don't have to convince me about Pip's magnitude, I was watching those games. But I also saw Pip play as a rookie, and he was far from being the Pip we know. We all remember the migraines too. He grew into that All-time great status we now know him for, and in the meantime it was MJ carrying the Bulls (which the knock against him in his early years : scoring but not making his teammates better early on).

I wouldn't call the teams listed as not winning the championship "horrible" franchises. Suns and Pacers have both been to the Finals and were consistently in the playoffs for years, Magic too, Hornets were a good team for all of the 90s, Grizzlies post Vancouver are regulars in the playoffs, etc. Hardly "horrible" franchises I would say. That list is like you said, not infaillible, because it puts a lot of weight on winning division for ex, so if you were in the Central Division in the 90s you have less luck than if you were in the Atlantic, for example. But all lists have flaws.

I didn't overlook what you said in your previous post, just wanted to put some facts. Kobe got there before Phil, and before Shaq signed. Indeed, he said he didn't want to play in Charlotte. Lakers recognized talent and took the huge gamble (this was one year after KG came from HS, and his first season wasn't exactly quieting all the doubters) of trading for him.

Bron chose not to do like Kobe (or like ) and force a trade to another team when he was drafted, good for him. He resigned with Cleveland after his rookie contract was up, knowing how the management worked and its limitations, good for him. He wanted a ring and got with Wade and Riley to get one, good for him. He then decided to go back to Cleveland and put together this current team, good for him.

If Bron wanted to play for a great organization, he could've left Cleveland multiple times. He could've gone to the Bulls, he could've stayed in Miami, and so on and so forth. He DECIDED multiple times to stay or go back to Cleveland, good for him, but the case of "Lebron's unlucky he was drafted by the Cavs and hasn't had the luxury of playing with other all times greats" can't be made anymore. He could've when his rookie contract was up, or he could've stayed in Miami.

What does Phil not being there when Jordan got there have to do with anything? I never said he was, in my first post I said Jordan made the Bulls a legendary franchise, but under the guidance of and with the help of Phil Jackson, and the help of a hall of famer in Pippen, great role players, and later another hall of famer in Rodman. Again, my point was that he didn't breakthrough until Pippen and Phil got there, he was a great player/scorer, but not a champion until he had those two on his side. Also we're talking about the past so it can only be spoken about in hindsight, and in hindsight Jordan played for the greatest coach in NBA history, possibly in any sport ever, with a hall of fame #2, another hall of famer who was possibly the greatest rebounder ever, and a very good to great supporting cast.

As for Pippen growing into all time great status, so did every other all time great, so that's not really a valid point, by definition a player can't be an all time great instantly it has to be earned and grown into. You're not really making any kind of credible argument against Lebron or in favor of Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Kobe. I'm not questioning their greatness or their legacies, just saying that none of them, at any point in their career, faced the unrealistic expectations that Lebron had to deal with right out of high school, and that they played for all time great franchises, with all time great teammates and/or coaches.

When it's all said and done and people compare Lebron to the rest of the greats I think people will realize how different his situation was compared to theirs. I don't care if he chose to go back to Cleveland, that doesn't change anything. He couldn't go to a team that was the equivalent of the Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers or the Shaq/Phil/Kobe Lakers, the Bird/McHale/Parrish Celtics, or the Jordan/Phil/Pippen Bulls without facing relentless criticism and tarnishing his legacy, meanwhile they all inherited those situations and benefitted from them greatly. Notice a trend, everyone of those teams had AT LEAST 3 all time greats, either players or coaches, Lebron had that for maybe 1 season with Wade and Pat Riley, cause Spoelstra isn't in that category and neither is Bosh.

 

[Brief Keef]

LeBron is 31 until December.

funny cuz it's probably true

 

[Brief Keef]

Breh's let this shyt marinate for a second: Blatt supposedly got fired because he wasn't holding LeHelpMe accountable

What about LeBron holding himself accountable. They really pushing this narrative that LeBron wanted Blatt gone because Blatt wouldn't call him out That shyt literally makes zero sense.

you do know why bron went back to Cle right ? nikka does whatever the fukk he want lol @ him doing such a frivolous thing

 

[Lifer11]

Kobe didnt "cry" his way to the Lakers

Jerry West made it clear they were going to get him any way they possibly could

Should've quoted me.

Like I said it was hyperbole, but...

Fact vs. Fiction Vol. I: The True Story of How Kobe Became A Laker - Page 3 of 3 - Lakers Nation

"On the day of the draft, with the Nets prepared to draft Kobe, everything changed. Kobe called Calipari and told him that he didn’t want to play for the Nets. Tellem called Nash and relayed the same message on behalf of his client. He even went so far as to threaten to have Kobe play in Italy if the Nets selected him."

This is after he worked out for the Nets, who had the 8th pick, leading up to the draft and him and his parents seemed excited to play there since it was close to their Philadelphia home. But before the Nets even drafted, the Hornets already agreed to trade Kobe with the 13th pick for Vlade Divac. How'd they even know Kobe would be available at 13 if the Nets had every intention of taking him at 8? Calipari even admitted that Sonny Vaccaro, Michael Jordan's agent, talked him out of drafting Kobe but didn't give any reason as to why. The NBA and Kobe made sure he went to the Lakers. He essentially "cried" his way away from the Nets and the Hornets to get to the Lakers. Jerry West making it clear that they were going to do everything they could to get Kobe doesn't negate that Kobe refused to play for other teams, if anything it strengthens that argument because he knew the Lakers wanted him bad enough, so he could threaten to not play for anyone else knowing he could go to Italy for a few months and then sign as a FA, or just force any team to trade him rather than get nothing for him.

 

[mbewane]

What does Phil not being there when Jordan got there have to do with anything? I never said he was, in my first post I said Jordan made the Bulls a legendary franchise, but under the guidance of and with the help of Phil Jackson, and the help of a hall of famer in Pippen, great role players, and later another hall of famer in Rodman. Again, my point was that he didn't breakthrough until Pippen and Phil got there, he was a great player/scorer, but not a champion until he had those two on his side. Also we're talking about the past so it can only be spoken about in hindsight, and in hindsight Jordan played for the greatest coach in NBA history, possibly in any sport ever, with a hall of fame #2, another hall of famer who was possibly the greatest rebounder ever, and a very good to great supporting cast.

As for Pippen growing into all time great status, so did every other all time great, so that's not really a valid point, by definition a player can't be an all time great instantly it has to be earned and grown into. You're not really making any kind of credible argument against Lebron or in favor of Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Kobe. I'm not questioning their greatness or their legacies, just saying that none of them, at any point in their career, faced the unrealistic expectations that Lebron had to deal with right out of high school, and that they played for all time great franchises, with all time great teammates and/or coaches.

When it's all said and done and people compare Lebron to the rest of the greats I think people will realize how different his situation was compared to theirs. I don't care if he chose to go back to Cleveland, that doesn't change anything. He couldn't go to a team that was the equivalent of the Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers or the Shaq/Phil/Kobe Lakers, the Bird/McHale/Parrish Celtics, or the Jordan/Phil/Pippen Bulls without facing relentless criticism and tarnishing his legacy, meanwhile they all inherited those situations and benefitted from them greatly. Notice a trend, everyone of those teams had AT LEAST 3 all time greats, either players or coaches, Lebron had that for maybe 1 season with Wade and Pat Riley, cause Spoelstra isn't in that category and neither is Bosh.

Huge difference being that MJ made Pippen greater, and didn't sabotage Phil.

Lebron put those expectations on him, going with the Chosen One theme, playing with number 23, "Not one, not two, not three, not four...". And yes going back to Cleveland has everything to do with it, he CHOSE the situation he's in. He had a great situation in Miami and DECIDED on his own to get out of it.

 

[Lifer11]

Huge difference being that MJ made Pippen greater, and didn't sabotage Phil.

Lebron put those expectations on him, going with the Chosen One theme, playing with number 23, "Not one, not two, not three, not four...". And yes going back to Cleveland has everything to do with it, he CHOSE the situation he's in. He had a great situation in Miami and DECIDED on his own to get out of it.

This is like a short book, but fukk it I want to make my point one last time and try to make you realize you're not even addressing my arguments...

Again, what do those expectations that he supposedly put on himself have to do with that fact that Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Kobe were all drafted and were members of better teams/franchises, with better front offices, coaches, and teammates? WAY better teammates in all their cases, WAY better franchises in Magic, Bird, and Kobe's cases (eventually in Jordan's case too, but that was due to the Jordan/Pippen/Phil/Rodman era). Also a WAY better coach in Kobe, Jordan, and Bird's case (Bill Fitch, ranked as one of the 10 best NBA coaches of all time).

Lebron did not put those expecations on himself, ESPN followed his every move since he was a junior in high school, the "Chosen One" theme/nickname was given to him by the media, and plenty of players chose, and still choose, to play with the number 23. That didn't give anyone the expecations that they would be the next Jordan. If Lebron put those expectations on himself, and was actually able to do that, why doesn't every player, or at least every high draft pick, put those kind of expectations on themselves to build their hype and their brand? It's because no one ever came into the league perceived to have as much potential and therefore such lofty and unrealistic expectations, and out of control hype.

As for Jordan not sabotaging Phil, he wasn't in a position to sabotage him until he won a chip and when he did it was under Phil, also Phil is known for his ability to manage star's egos so it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that Phil knew exactly how to get the best out of Jordan and how to treat him to not rub him the wrong way, pause. After they won their chips and Jordan bought into his system no one could've sabotaged Phil anyway, like no one could sabotage Pop, and if Lebron played for a coach of that caliber he'd show respect and know his role. It could be argued that Lebron has a higher basketball IQ than every coach he's had thus far.

And most great players make other players better, Pippen also made Jordan better, supported by the fact that Jordan didn't breakthrough and get his first ring until after Pippen got there and really came into his own (I know Pippen was there a couple seasons before they won, just clarifying so you don't try to call out another useless timeline issue).

In Jordan's absence Pippen played MVP caliber ball, won the All-Star MVP, and led them to a 55-27 record. He was also the leading vote getter for the All-NBA First Team and the NBA All-Defensive First Team, Pippen ranked eighth in the league in scoring (22.0), 23rd in rebounding (8.7), 19th in assists (5.6), and second in steals (2.93). So for the record without Jordan he averaged 22 pts, 8.7 reb, 5.6 assists, and 2.93 steals. He was a top 5 player in the league (top 7 AT WORST0, Lebron never had that. Given another season or two and some more talent, the Bulls may have won some chips with no Jordan and Pippen as the leader/#1 option, obvious speculation but it's based on solid statistics. The equivalent of this would've been Lebron and Wade playing together from the very beginning of their careers. Imagine them on rookie contracts, then having Bird rights so they could be signed without the team going over the cap and still being able to add all the necessary role players needed, all the while being coached by Pat Riley, or Phil, or Pop. They would've dominated the league on par with those Bulls' teams, if not more.

And again your arguments are all irrelevant to the points I'm making anyway. He didn't choose to be drafted by Cleveland, of course he could've threatened to play in Italy like Kobe did to the Nets/Calipari if they drafted him, and made the same threat to any other team that wanted to draft him that wasn't a legendary franchise or stacked with young talent and a championship caliber roster/coach, but he didn't. The overall theme of all my posts is that Lebron has never had the kind of support system around him as the other greats, there is no sensible accurate logical argument that could be made against this. He had 1, maybe 2 seasons with a near prime Wade, but clearly not a prime Wade, and a really good Chris Bosh, a rookie coach that was average to above average at best, and a legend in Riley. So say 1.5 seasons with a support system that was really good, but still nowhere near what those other players had for the better parts of their careers, some right from the very start.

People can speculate all they want that Wade would've taken less money, but the stories at the time all said Wade wasn't willing to take a paycut, and they desperately needed him to do that so they could add young talent in order compete for years to come. If Lebron went to a different team with a great young core in place he would've been criticized and had his legacy questioned (like he did when we went to Miami), Cleveland was the only place he could control the narrative and make it all about coming home. And the whole deciding part makes another case for my argument anyway, those other players (Magic, Bird, Jordan and Kobe) never even had to make a decision, they were all drafted to great franchises that either had great players and coaches, or later added them (besides Shaq who signed to the Lakers and received no criticism or questions about his legacy). Cleveland has never been able to do that.

I'm not trying to make an argument that Lebron is better all time than Jordan, or even the other greats mentioned, just that they never faced as much pressure to win and win big and often, while also having far better support systems in place to help them do just that. I don't know why you're arguing still when your responses aren't even addressing those points, you're just trying to hold Lebron accountable for things he had little to no control over. Lebron's done plenty that he should be held accountable for, but it's completely false to act like he could've done more to put a better support system around himself.