The Official Tennis Thread
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I just read and improve my knowledge
First of, Mac was in my 6-10 (at 8 below Lendl then Djokovic but above Agassi) so I already reckon him as one of the top dogs.
But, even if I can concede that the depths of the 80s was better, there is no way I can concede that the quality was. The competition Nadal faced was better and that is seen in the numbers. The quality of the top 4 from 2008 to 2012 and the dominance of Federer from 2004 to 2007 and Djoko post 2011 is far better and consistent that what there was before where there were more players able to reach the top (depth) but they weren't staying as long (quality).
Since Federer took over 11 years ago, there are only be 3 different #1s with few changes at the top. From 1973 to 1984, there was 6 different #1s with a whole lot of switches (Connors 1st for a week then Mac 1st the next one and so on).
The depth were better in the 70/80s I agree with that but the quality of the domination wasn't ! Nadal dominated (2008 then 2010) in an era Federer was god emperor. Then Djokovic came up (2011) and Nadal reclaimed it's throne (2013) for Novak to finally take it back in 2014. I believe it takes more to overcome reigns and institute yours than it takes to win the crown, keep it for a few weeks then having it taken for a few weeks, rinse and repeat. Domination is my evidence for competition quality.
Also, you tell me McEnroe's records were impressive against plenty of top players and I agree but objectively, Rafa's is even better (against N°1s (even for a few weeks 
) only, taken from Wikipedia because there's no way I could know this by heart 
) :
- against Federer (GOAT) : 23-10
- against Nole (future top 5, secured top 10) : 23-21 *this one may become negative in the next few years but it is currently positive*
- against Agassi : 2-0
- against Hewitt : 7-4
- against Roddikk : 7-3
- against Moya : 6-2
- against Safin : 2-0
- against Ferrero : 7-2
I could also add other non-#1 GS winners like Delpo, Murray or Wawrinka which whom he also has a positive record. So Nadal against the best and significant players (#1s or the GS winners) of his generation has no negative records while Mac is 50/50.
So you actually presented evidence that played against you
And if you tell me Cash (or even Chang) is top 50 ever, I'll have to put Safin, Murray, Wawrinka and Hewitt in it too !
- Hewitt was a #1 for more than a year and he has thrice more GS titles than them (see what I did there ?), 2 YEC and several GS finals though he had a chance playing before the coming of Federer who basically ended his reign.
- Safin was #1 and he has twice more GS titles than them and he played in prime Federer era
- Murray has 2 GS and an Olympic gold and competing in a generation with 3 players that are unarguably top 10 ever
- Wawrinka also has 2 GS, an Olympic gold in doubles lol and a Davis Cup.
So your Mac has positive records against 6 top "50". Rafa too ! And finally, let's be honest, Rafa's top 50 is unarguably better than Mac's !
- Federer > Connors
- Djokovic > Edberg
- Agassi > Wilander
- Hewitt > Nastase ()
- Murray > Chang
- Safin > Cash
I rest my case *drops mic*
) only, taken from Wikipedia because there's no way I could know this by heart ) :- against Federer (GOAT) : 23-10
- against Nole (future top 5, secured top 10) : 23-21 *this one may become negative in the next few years but it is currently positive*
- against Agassi : 2-0
- against Hewitt : 7-4
- against Roddikk : 7-3
- against Moya : 6-2
- against Safin : 2-0
- against Ferrero : 7-2
I could also add other non-#1 GS winners like Delpo, Murray or Wawrinka which whom he also has a positive record. So Nadal against the best and significant players (#1s or the GS winners) of his generation has no negative records while Mac is 50/50.
So you actually presented evidence that played against you
And if you tell me Cash (or even Chang) is top 50 ever, I'll have to put Safin, Murray, Wawrinka and Hewitt in it too !
- Hewitt was a #1 for more than a year and he has thrice more GS titles than them (see what I did there ?
), 2 YEC and several GS finals though he had a chance playing before the coming of Federer who basically ended his reign.- Safin was #1 and he has twice more GS titles than them and he played in prime Federer era
- Murray has 2 GS and an Olympic gold and competing in a generation with 3 players that are unarguably top 10 ever
- Wawrinka also has 2 GS, an Olympic gold in doubles lol and a Davis Cup.
So your Mac has positive records against 6 top "50". Rafa too ! And finally, let's be honest, Rafa's top 50 is unarguably better than Mac's !
- Federer > Connors
- Djokovic > Edberg
- Agassi > Wilander
- Hewitt > Nastase (
)- Murray > Chang
- Safin > Cash
I rest my case *drops mic*
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First of, Mac was in my 6-10 (at 8 below Lendl then Djokovic but above Agassi) so I already reckon him as one of the top dogs.
But, even if I can concede that the depths of the 80s was better, there is no way I can concede that the quality was. The competition Nadal faced was better and that is seen in the numbers. The quality of the top 4 from 2008 to 2012 and the dominance of Federer from 2004 to 2007 and Djoko post 2011 is far better and consistent that what there was before where there were more players able to reach the top (depth) but they weren't staying as long (quality).
Since Federer took over 11 years ago, there are only be 3 different #1s with few changes at the top. From 1973 to 1984, there was 6 different #1s with a whole lot of switches (Connors 1st for a week then Mac 1st the next one and so on).
The depth were better in the 70/80s I agree with that but the quality of the domination wasn't ! Nadal dominated (2008 then 2010) in an era Federer was god emperor. Then Djokovic came up (2011) and Nadal reclaimed it's throne (2013) for Novak to finally take it back in 2014. I believe it takes more to overcome reigns and institute yours than it takes to win the crown, keep it for a few weeks then having it taken for a few weeks, rinse and repeat. Domination is my evidence for competition quality.
Also, you tell me McEnroe's records were impressive against plenty of top players and I agree but objectively, Rafa's is even better (against N°1s (even for a few weeks
- against Federer (GOAT) : 23-10
- against Nole (future top 5, secured top 10) : 23-21 *this one may become negative in the next few years but it is currently positive*
- against Agassi : 2-0
- against Hewitt : 7-4
- against Roddikk : 7-3
- against Moya : 6-2
- against Safin : 2-0
- against Ferrero : 7-2
I could also add other non-#1 GS winners like Delpo, Murray or Wawrinka which whom he also has a positive record. So Nadal against the best and significant players (#1s or the GS winners) of his generation has no negative records while Mac is 50/50.
So you actually presented evidence that played against you
And if you tell me Cash (or even Chang) is top 50 ever, I'll have to put Safin, Murray, Wawrinka and Hewitt in it too !
- Hewitt was a #1 for more than a year and he has thrice more GS titles than them (see what I did there ?
- Safin was #1 and he has twice more GS titles than them and he played in prime Federer era
- Murray has 2 GS and an Olympic gold and competing in a generation with 3 players that are unarguably top 10 ever
- Wawrinka also has 2 GS, an Olympic gold in doubles lol and a Davis Cup.
So your Mac has positive records against 6 top "50". Rafa too ! And finally, let's be honest, Rafa's top 50 is unarguably better than Mac's !
- Federer > Connors
- Djokovic > Edberg
- Agassi > Wilander
- Hewitt > Nastase (
- Murray > Chang
- Safin > Cash
I rest my case *drops mic*
1. I have yet to do a heads up comparison of achievements..that was merely a preface based on SOS.
- Rafa beat Agassi when he was 36. One was in 3 sets and another was a tiebreak first set at Wimbledon. Thats not even worth mentioning compared to McEnroe beating Agassi when he was ancient and Agassi was young.
- 13 of Rafa's wins against Federer came on Clay. We gonna start using Sampras' losses on Clay to trumpet someone else next?
- 14 of Rafa's wins against Novak came on Clay but he has lost 3 out of the last 4 on Clay to him. Re: Clay court specialist Re:Re: Fed and Nole >Nadal
- Rafa 5-0 vs Hewitt on Clay. Hewitt is 4-2 other than Clay. Re:Clay court specialist
- Roddikk is historically weak against top end competition and Safin was a coke-head when Nadal beat him in 07 and 09. Safin wouldve wiped him when he was playing his best 00-05
- Carlos Moya and Juan Carlos Ferrero breh? You know better than that.
- Ferrer is 4-4 vs Nadal off clay Re: Clay court specialist
- Nadal's gold medal came against Fernando Gonzalez
- Nadal= 126-26 in GS (82.8%). 401-122 overall (76.6%)
- Djokovic= 150-28 in GS (84.2%). 237-56 overall (80.8%) (very even on all surfaces) but subtracted hard court (415-83, 84%).
- Federer= 212-38 in GS (84.8%). 894-214 overall. (80.8%)
The overall quality was far better in the mid 70s-80s-90s and basically all around forever. The big 4 era is actually close to the WOAT era since the 60-70s.
And Nadal was the third best out of four. And I dont even want to consider Murray since he has been preying on such shytty competition and otherwise loses. Wawrinka is a late bloomer but is talented so I grant you that. Del Po was healthy for what? 3 years tops?You point of me backfiring backfired on you. What does it say about overall quality of play and tournament wins when there are only 4 top tier players?
Please, spare me. And I argue that Nadal has and will be considered below Federer (which you already agree on) and Djokovic (which you imply is possible) even with clay court achievements included. Without them, he is statistically worse all around than them and without them head to head he's essentially even with Federer and awful vs Novak (9-17 or something like that). God bless the beautiful French Clay 
And yea the top 4 was more consistent in this 08-15 span..because they have essentially been the same people. 1=1, enlightening.
The ability of eras prior to have more players rise up to the top 4 show that they 1. were all around better tennis players rather than cheesing on one surface 2. had far more depth than 4 players. How can you possibly make an argument around an era of tennis based on 4 players? How would it look in any other sport if there was only 4 top tier athletes or 4 top tier teams for 7 years? It'd be the WOAT era. Outside of maybe 15 other players at their absolute peak performance from 08-15, no one would crack the top 15 consistently in the previous 30 years.Also, is Edberg better than Murray? How about Connors, Lendl, Borg, Becker, Wilander, Agassi etc etc. Hell, even Chang, Ivanisevic, Kafelnikov, Safin etc etc are better skilled than Murray. Care to explain to me how Murray, Nishikori, Djokovic, Federer and Cilic all improved their game with Edberg, Becker, Chang, Lendl and Goran being their coaches..then Murray declined when he split ways with Lendl and Nadal is constantly sitting at home with Uncle Toni? The improvement of those players with 80's and 90's top end talent is even more evidence to their advanced brain-trust and skill compared to this generation. Federer had a resurgence, Novak diversified his game and got craftier, Murray became more aggressive and Kei/Cilic improved from jobbers to top end talent under the guidance. Meanwhile, Nadal has done NADA
since his physical attributes and athleticism diminished..which is further evidence of a static play style dependent on said things and certain surfaces rather than actually being a top 5 all-time tennis player. Its remarkable that he is at 3 all time in your original list when he is 3 overall in the WOAT era.And I still havent gotten to McEnroe's direct accomplishments. Re: Singles Re: Doubles
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Yapdatfool
Superstar
Fabio Fognini.
part
, part 
, all 
part
, part , all
Awful final 
. Fognini gave it to Nadal whom is still playing the same he was. He really got stop with Toni because ain't no way he'll be back in the top 4 like that.
) but my comp crashed on me because I was foolishly multitasking and when back on, I only got a portion of it back and just said fukkit I don't have the time I had around Wimby to reply further to you so I'll have to let you "replyless" unfortunately.
I then simply agree to disagree with you (or may I'll wait a few weeks with more time to properly do it lol) because we don't even agree on how we define greatness. This core point is fundamental to even be on a close wavelength and we're far from it so it's not even worth arguing further IMO. The more we'll go on, the more "deaf" we'll be to each other arguments (not willingly but because we're not on the same ground). Above all If you think the big 4 era is the WOAT which I absolutely disagree with for the record (because that would mean that 2002/2006 Fed's era was better which is unfathomable to me). Ultimately, I think you got my points (tho you don't agree) and I definitely got yours (tho I don't agree).
. Fognini gave it to Nadal whom is still playing the same he was. He really got stop with Toni because ain't no way he'll be back in the top 4 like that.An hour ago, I started replying a long message (had to open Word to do so1. I have yet to do a heads up comparison of achievements..that was merely a preface based on SOS.
2. If you took away their records in their best GS's and best win % on a surface otherwise:
- Rafa beat Agassi when he was 36. One was in 3 sets and another was a tiebreak first set at Wimbledon. Thats not even worth mentioning compared to McEnroe beating Agassi when he was ancient and Agassi was young.
- 13 of Rafa's wins against Federer came on Clay. We gonna start using Sampras' losses on Clay to trumpet someone else next?
- 14 of Rafa's wins against Novak came on Clay but he has lost 3 out of the last 4 on Clay to him. Re: Clay court specialist Re:Re: Fed and Nole >Nadal
- Rafa 5-0 vs Hewitt on Clay. Hewitt is 4-2 other than Clay. Re:Clay court specialist
- Roddikk is historically weak against top end competition and Safin was a coke-head when Nadal beat him in 07 and 09. Safin wouldve wiped him when he was playing his best 00-05
- Carlos Moya and Juan Carlos Ferrero breh? You know better than that.
- Ferrer is 4-4 vs Nadal off clay Re: Clay court specialist
- Nadal's gold medal came against Fernando Gonzalez
Where is this all-around dominance? I seemed to have missed it. Re:Clay court specialist.
- Nadal= 126-26 in GS (82.8%). 401-122 overall (76.6%)
- Djokovic= 150-28 in GS (84.2%). 237-56 overall (80.8%) (very even on all surfaces) but subtracted hard court (415-83, 84%).
- Federer= 212-38 in GS (84.8%). 894-214 overall. (80.8%)
The overall quality was far better in the mid 70s-80s-90s and basically all around forever. The big 4 era is actually close to the WOAT era since the 60-70s.
You point of me backfiring backfired on you. What does it say about overall quality of play and tournament wins when there are only 4 top tier players?
And yea the top 4 was more consistent in this 08-15 span..because they have essentially been the same people. 1=1, enlightening.
Also, is Edberg better than Murray? How about Connors, Lendl, Borg, Becker, Wilander, Agassi etc etc. Hell, even Chang, Ivanisevic, Kafelnikov, Safin etc etc are better skilled than Murray. Care to explain to me how Murray, Nishikori, Djokovic, Federer and Cilic all improved their game with Edberg, Becker, Chang, Lendl and Goran being their coaches..then Murray declined when he split ways with Lendl and Nadal is constantly sitting at home with Uncle Toni? The improvement of those players with 80's and 90's top end talent is even more evidence to their advanced brain-trust and skill compared to this generation. Federer had a resurgence, Novak diversified his game and got craftier, Murray became more aggressive and Kei/Cilic improved from jobbers to top end talent under the guidance. Meanwhile, Nadal has done NADA
And I still havent gotten to McEnroe's direct accomplishments. Re: Singles Re: Doubles
) but my comp crashed on me because I was foolishly multitasking and when back on, I only got a portion of it back and just said fukkit I don't have the time I had around Wimby to reply further to you so I'll have to let you "replyless" unfortunately.I then simply agree to disagree with you (or may I'll wait a few weeks with more time to properly do it lol) because we don't even agree on how we define greatness. This core point is fundamental to even be on a close wavelength and we're far from it so it's not even worth arguing further IMO. The more we'll go on, the more "deaf" we'll be to each other arguments (not willingly but because we're not on the same ground). Above all If you think the big 4 era is the WOAT which I absolutely disagree with for the record (because that would mean that 2002/2006 Fed's era was better which is unfathomable to me). Ultimately, I think you got my points (tho you don't agree) and I definitely got yours (tho I don't agree).
Couldn't find a boxing equivalent 
Awful final
An hour ago, I started replying a long message (had to open Word to do so
I then simply agree to disagree with you (or may I'll wait a few weeks with more time to properly do it lol) because we don't even agree on how we define greatness. This core point is fundamental to even be on a close wavelength and we're far from it so it's not even worth arguing further IMO. The more we'll go on, the more "deaf" we'll be to each other arguments (not willingly but because we're not on the same ground). Above all If you think the big 4 era is the WOAT which I absolutely disagree with for the record (because that would mean that 2002/2006 Fed's era was better which is unfathomable to me). Ultimately, I think you got my points (tho you don't agree) and I definitely got yours (tho I don't agree).
Couldn't find a boxing equivalent
fair enough friend. it was just two sides of a debate
that word crashed for a reason though
ball don't lie 
sidenote: i might try to catch mcenroe vs courier and roddikk vs blake in new haven soon
muzikfrk75
#4080
Keys since the 1st set 
malbaker86
Gators
2015 Coupe Rogers
August 10-16, 2015
Uniprix Stadium
Montreal, Canada
Level: Masters 1000
Surface: Outdoor Hard
Draw size: S-56, D-24
Defending champions: S-Jo-Wilfried Tsonga (FRA), D-Alexander Peya (AUT) / Bruno Soares (BRA) [2-time defending champions]
Seeds:
[1] Novak Djokovic (SRB)
[2] Andy Murray (GBR)
[3] Stan Wawrinka (SUI)
[4] Kei Nishikori (JPN)
[5] Tomas Berdych (CZE)
[6] Marin Cilic (CRO)
[7] Rafael Nadal (ESP)
[8] Milos Raonic (CAN)
[9] Gilles Simon (FRA)
[10] Jo-Wilfried Tsonga (FRA)
[11] Richard Gasquet (FRA)
[12] Kevin Anderson (RSA)
[13] David Goffin (BEL)
[14] Grigor Dimitrov (BUL)
[15] Gael Monfils (FRA)
[16] John Isner (USA)
August 10-16, 2015
Uniprix Stadium
Montreal, Canada
Level: Masters 1000
Surface: Outdoor Hard
Draw size: S-56, D-24
Defending champions: S-Jo-Wilfried Tsonga (FRA), D-Alexander Peya (AUT) / Bruno Soares (BRA) [2-time defending champions]
Seeds:
[1] Novak Djokovic (SRB)
[2] Andy Murray (GBR)
[3] Stan Wawrinka (SUI)
[4] Kei Nishikori (JPN)
[5] Tomas Berdych (CZE)
[6] Marin Cilic (CRO)
[7] Rafael Nadal (ESP)
[8] Milos Raonic (CAN)
[9] Gilles Simon (FRA)
[10] Jo-Wilfried Tsonga (FRA)
[11] Richard Gasquet (FRA)
[12] Kevin Anderson (RSA)
[13] David Goffin (BEL)
[14] Grigor Dimitrov (BUL)
[15] Gael Monfils (FRA)
[16] John Isner (USA)
malbaker86
Gators
Possible QF's are:
Djokovic
vs
Berdych
Wawrinka
vs
Raonic
Nadal
vs
Nishikori
Cilic
vs
Murray
Djokovic
vs
Berdych
Wawrinka
vs
Raonic
Nadal
vs
Nishikori
Cilic
vs
Murray
muzikfrk75
#4080
RIP 
malbaker86
Gators
Venus out chea getting WASHED in the 1st set. 5-0 already