Essential The Official Football (Soccer) Thread - It's Amad World

[null]

second factor is the stat obsessed era led by messi and ronaldo.

doubt that.



i think the drive for stats has been led by american sport influence (and the advance of technology).

american sport is notoriously stats focused. both to obtain insights for competitive advantage AND to build marketing narratives (to sell)



"Moneyball has also influenced and been influenced by other professional sports teams including European club association football (soccer). Beane has regarded Arsenal's former manager Arsène Wenger as a personal idol. Beane has held discussions with Wenger, former Manchester United F.C. manager Alex Ferguson, and Liverpool F.C. owner John W. Henry.[7] His friendship with ex-Arsenal scout Damien Comolli and Arsenal owner Stan Kroenke allowed him to delve deep into the world of English football.[8] According to El País, Liverpool F.C. co-owner John W. Henry did not trust public opinion so he looked for a mathematical method similar to the one used for the Boston Red Sox (in guiding them to three World Series wins) which he also owns via Fenway Sports Group.[9] The mathematical model turned out to be that of Cambridge physicist Ian Graham, which was used to select the manager (Jürgen Klopp) and players essential for Liverpool to win the 2018–19 UEFA Champions League.[10][11]"

Moneyball - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ThrobbingHood]

second factor is the stat obsessed era led by messi and ronaldo. Players were winning ballon dor and WPOTY back in the day with stats that would be considered poverty stats by todays standard but back then football was about entertainment

You make an excellent point. Figo, Zidane, Kaka and other winners didn’t have “impressive” stats but anyone who watched them play in their prime, would tell you their stats didn’t do them justice.

You could be recognized for your flair, skill, authority in a game without an assist or goal to show for it. Back then, defenders would win POTY (Cannavaro was the last one to I believe), because people weren’t as obsessed with stats.

While I don’t blame Ronaldo or Messi, their rivalry coupled with Tiki Taka football definitely impacted the game more negatively than positively.

I could see the tides were turning in 2010 when neither Iniesta or Sneijder won POTY in favor of Messi. How Sway???

 

[Jalether]

doubt that.



i think the drive for stats has been led by american sport influence (and the advance of technology).

american sport is notoriously stats focused. both to obtain insights for competitive advantage AND to build marketing narratives (to sell)



"Moneyball has also influenced and been influenced by other professional sports teams including European club association football (soccer). Beane has regarded Arsenal's former manager Arsène Wenger as a personal idol. Beane has held discussions with Wenger, former Manchester United F.C. manager Alex Ferguson, and Liverpool F.C. owner John W. Henry.[7] His friendship with ex-Arsenal scout Damien Comolli and Arsenal owner Stan Kroenke allowed him to delve deep into the world of English football.[8] According to El País, Liverpool F.C. co-owner John W. Henry did not trust public opinion so he looked for a mathematical method similar to the one used for the Boston Red Sox (in guiding them to three World Series wins) which he also owns via Fenway Sports Group.[9] The mathematical model turned out to be that of Cambridge physicist Ian Graham, which was used to select the manager (Jürgen Klopp) and players essential for Liverpool to win the 2018–19 UEFA Champions League.[10][11]"

Moneyball - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The american nfluence relates more to the coaching and player improvement side of the equation. I'm focusing more on how football is analysed from the perspective of fans journalist and media

 

[TobiOT]

No way in hell Yoro chooses us over Madrid.

At least we’re in talk with multiple players.

 

[Jalether]

You make an excellent point. Figo, Zidane, Kaka and other winners didn’t have “impressive” stats but anyone who watched them play in their prime, would tell you their stats didn’t do them justice.

You could be recognized for your flair, skill, authority in a game without an assist or goal to show for it. Back then, defenders would win POTY (Cannavaro was the last one to I believe), because people weren’t as obsessed with stats.

While I don’t blame Ronaldo or Messi, their rivalry coupled with Tiki Taka football definitely impacted the game more negatively than positively.

I could see the tides were turning in 2010 when neither Iniesta or Sneijder POTY in favor of Messi. How Sway???

Facts.

The sneijder WPOTY snub in particular was a travesty.

Also Look what's happened to goalkeeping as well, the first and most important stats/factor for judging and rating them nowadays isn't their pure goalkeeping skills but their
ability to play out from the back. GK's like Petr cech,Peter schmeichel,Buffon et al would struggle to play for a big team nowadays

 

[null]

The american nfluence relates more to the coaching and player improvement side of the equation. I'm focusing more on how football is analysed from the perspective of fans
journalist and media

the fans/journalists and media didn't create those stats nor to they collate them.

statistics are not just focused on attackers.

things like assists, xG, heat maps, possession etc were added to the game/leagues/competitions to enrich the data available to both practitioners and the media (incl. journalists).

similar is happening to cricket.

 

[null]

No way in hell Yoro chooses us over Madrid.

At least we’re in talk with multiple players.

do we really need 3 new defenders tho?

 

[Gilver]

do we really need 3 new defenders tho?

We're getting two CBs. De Ligt + 1. The Yoro bid is just us applying pressure to Everton.

But if Real can't stump up the cash(looks like they can't) and we can convince Yoro then it's a cheaper deal than Branthwaite so happy days.

As i understand it, De Ligt + Branthwaite would mean selling one of Lindelof or Maguire.

 

[Yayo Toure]

doubt that.



i think the drive for stats has been led by american sport influence (and the advance of technology).

american sport is notoriously stats focused. both to obtain insights for competitive advantage AND to build marketing narratives (to sell)



"Moneyball has also influenced and been influenced by other professional sports teams including European club association football (soccer). Beane has regarded Arsenal's former manager Arsène Wenger as a personal idol. Beane has held discussions with Wenger, former Manchester United F.C. manager Alex Ferguson, and Liverpool F.C. owner John W. Henry.[7] His friendship with ex-Arsenal scout Damien Comolli and Arsenal owner Stan Kroenke allowed him to delve deep into the world of English football.[8] According to El País, Liverpool F.C. co-owner John W. Henry did not trust public opinion so he looked for a mathematical method similar to the one used for the Boston Red Sox (in guiding them to three World Series wins) which he also owns via Fenway Sports Group.[9] The mathematical model turned out to be that of Cambridge physicist Ian Graham, which was used to select the manager (Jürgen Klopp) and players essential for Liverpool to win the 2018–19 UEFA Champions League.[10][11]"

Moneyball - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The drive for stats was def. started by Ronaldo vs Messi as they one upped each other for scoring records. I remember Barca was up like 4-0 in a two leg champions league tie, Messi played the next leg and bagged more goals. End of year he's at the Balon D'or ceremony in a jacket with sequins for every goal he scored. Dolly Parton shyt without the t*ts.

That moneyball stuff you are referring to is a funny approach to football, most scouting departments use it, but none of it(and the examples cited) has led to any sustained success. Advanced statistics are very difficult to use to make good transfer decisions in a sport where it's 11 v 11.

 

[null]

The drive for stats was def. started by Ronaldo vs Messi as they one upped each other for scoring records. I remember Barca was up like 4-0 in a two leg champions league tie, Messi played the next leg and bagged more goals. End of year he's at the Balon D'or ceremony in a jacket with sequins for every goal he scored. Dolly Parton shyt without the t*ts.

That moneyball stuff you are referring to is a funny approach to football, most scouting departments use it, but none of it(and the examples cited) has led to any sustained success. Advanced statistics are very difficult to use to make good transfer decisions in a sport where it's 11 v 11.

it started with the addition of assists in the 1994 fifa world cup in the UNITED STATES.

 

[bigdaddy88]

yea the messi/ronaldo era over inflated numbers. Players like vini and specially neymar win the ballon d'or atleast once pre messi/ronnie era.......

Numbers are deceiving for some of these players smh

 

[TobiOT]

do we really need 3 new defenders tho?

You know Ten Scam don’t rotate and we’re defo getting injuries+ Europa.

 

[Yayo Toure]

it started with the addition of assists in the 1994 fifa world cup in the UNITED STATES.

This is a fair point too.

People talk about the purity of football but I'm witnessing players not make the right action because it won't give them a goal or assist. At the international level it's more harmful because very few teams generate enough chances over 90 minutes for players to pick and choose when to play the right way.

 

[Gilver]

You know Ten Scam don’t rotate and we’re defo getting injuries+ Europa.

I think we end the window having signed two CBs and a left back. I think the left back will depend on sales depending on who it is, we've been linked with the lad from Fenerbache Ferdi Kadıoğlu(looked good at the Euros), Kerkez(expensive) and Chilwell(hmm no thanks) so far.

If AWB goes we could look at a right back too but not heard/seen any movement on that.

We want Ugarte for midfield, any further CM signings will hinge on Casemiro's future.

There's rumours of another attacker in addition to Zirkzee as well but again, sales needed.

 

[null]

I remember reading an article a long time ago that examined the differences between popular american sports and "soccer".

one was the low scoring. soccer was perceived as a sport where less happens because there was less scoring and fewer recorded events.

what could media talk about or market or build stories around with no goals and not much else.

the thing is the many things that were actually happening were not readily accessible to people who did not understand the game.

there were few hard numbers.

the lack of data meant that the entire analytics branch had less to work with.

marketing had less to talk about.

it's the same in US sports. in politics. in cricket. in education (league tables).

the modern way, driven by the US, is to lead with stats first. and build the stories off that.