Essential The Official Contemporary Haitian Geopolitics/Event thread
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You never lived in Haiti. This is business as usual. When the people get pissed the set the city ablaze. That's just how they do
Remember i lived in Haiti through:
- Duvalier's coup d'etat
- Nemphys's ousting
- Manigat's coup d'etat
- Cedras' departure
- Aristide's coup d'etat (the one in 1991)
- The ensuing embargo
- Trouillot's stepping down
You say its no big deal but the Haitians on twitter(including the woman in that tweet), youtube and other forums who lived in Haiti or have family in Haiti are saying its a big deal. That bank was owned by one of the elites who are suffocating the country. Haiti never really drove out its corrupt elite class since Baby Doc. Also I may have not "lived" in Haiti but I have family who lived there and friends who also give me intel on whats going on.
And we all agree that Haiti needs to break away from the USA and form relations with Russia and China. But for that to happen these elites need to be driven out either financially or physically.
I speak to people daily too in Haiti. I could post the voice message from a guy that's doing some repairs for me at my parents house right now in my old neighborhood (Carrefour) saying" It's the same shyts that's been hapenning for 20+ years: Businesses get burned down. Gvt offices get burned down.
Remember in 1990, Brandt's brand new car dealership got burned down. He aint budge.
These elite clowns have been around for a long time and are deeply rooted. They'll always find a loophole or someone to corrupt to get out of a jam unless you wanna go to a full blown Castro-like social-communism. Which wouldnt be the end of the world but i dont see it happening. The US would place an embargo to protect "american interest" as usual. Isnt that how the US invasion in 1918 happened? They felt that Haiti suddenly had too much german influence?
Aristide who was all about the masses and was an extremist in his own way couldnt drive them out and he's still by far one of the most powerful voices in Haiti.
Fair points but to be honest I don't think Aristide ever made it a huge effort to purge Haiti of those elites. I'm free to be corrected but I never read of him doing so. Did purge the tonton macoute but I don't think he purged the Syrian/Lebanese elites. Again correct me.
Makouts had been in hiding since 1986, doggy. WHen tey say what happenned to most of the big ones like Jack Gracia was burned in the middle of the street and chopped up into small pieces where street dogs came and ate his pieces. They were hiding. Arristide didn't have to actively chase Makouts. But Makouts weren't the only corrupt people in Haiti.
When you speak to your people ask them what the phrase "de ki prevyen" meant when Aristide would speak in his speeches. Basically he was trying to get the masses to rise up and revolt against therich and elite. He used to say " nou Menm pèp la ki ap soufri anba solèy la. Lè ou wè gwo towo yo ap pasé nan gwo oto klimatizé yo. Mandé yo de ki prevyen? "
He was saying those if "you suffering under the sun struggling to make ends meet. When you see these rich bourjois rolling up the street in their air conditioned cars. Stop them and ask: where is all this from?"
As innocent as it seemed he knew what he was doing. But random street dudes and other anarchists started using that speech and attacking random working and middle class people. Random nurses, doctors, store employees, bank employees or bank tellers who just happened to have a decent car (and by decent I mean Haiti decent like a 5 year old Honda accord). That created a lot of problems to the point where even some of Arristide's working class and middle class supporters started to walk away from him because they felt he was creating a dangerous environment empowering those who just wanna loot and pillage.
The problem is while middle and working class people were being attacked, Arristide's true Target in that speech , the corrupt elite, were never touched because the masses didn't have access to touch them. They might burn down a few businesses here and there but that hurts the working employees more than it does the rich fakkits who own the shyt and have all kinds of insurance policies in their shyt. Other small business owners also suffered too when they opened their businesses on a day the masses would declare a strike and barricade the streets. The looters would see a small business with its doors opened and they would often burn the shyt down to teach them a lesson that you are not to contradict the will of the people. And why i say small businesses, doggy...understand i'm talking random small bakeries and corner stores. Poor people earning a living. There arent the people that Arristide was targetting at all. But the looters would have their own agendas and would use Arristide's speeches to galvanise a few clueless ones into helping them carry out their nonsense.
That is why many working class people who were hardcore supporters of Arristide like my aunts stopped supporting him.
Edit: Finally found the speech from Arristide in an article Brush up on your french and kryol and read
https://lenouvelliste.com/m/public/...es-peripeties-de-la-constitution-de-mars-1987
The bold part is what truly got people to get reckless. It means "If you come across a fake supporter. Do NOT neglect to give them what they deserve." Some took that as "yeah let's burn their cars"
All these cars you see burning in those vids. Many belong to random people like me and you just trying to go about their business trying to get to work or pick up their kids frm school. SO that is why i say when you see looting hapenning in haiti it's not all about revolution. A lot of that can also be random personal agendas or random people that have nothing to do with anything that find themselves or their property in the path of the wrath of the people.
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So I was correct in a way. The elites and their businesses were hardly ever touched during Aristide's presidency. We've never seen anything similar to the Bolivarian movement in Haiti.
Their businesses did get attacked.
My dad was a contractor who had a shop in carrefour and repaired diesel trucks. ERF (Etablissement Raymond Flambert) had just opened a new location near Carrefour. That got burned down a week before its supposed grand opening. Flambert closed the shyt and let go of all the new employees that had just been hired to work there. A little under 200 people left jobless.
FYI ERF back then was like the Home Depot of Haiti. If you needed any construction materials he was pretty much the only supplier aside from a few small competitors like Prepty
Also, the baseball factory that was in Martissant was attacked too. MLB had a contract with s company where they made baseballs in Haiti and Costa Rica. It had been there since the 70s if im not mistaken. The place was attacked. They closed shop and all the equipment was relocated to the Costa Rican location.
What you are seeing here is nothing new. The "dechoukaj" approach didnt uproot them then. Not sure it will this time either
@Jesus is my protector
Please understand: When i say i've lived in Haiti im not trying to be any kind of way. But you have to understand that some of you who never lived there or in some cases even been there often view things in foreign countries through the lenses of the american perspective. While that has some good to have an outside input certain things dont always apply or at least not how you think it should.
My reason for saying that was when i lived in Haiti with my dad, my mother (who was living in Miami) would often call the house panicking because she had heard shyt in the news that made it seem every day was a massacre. She'd call the house at 9PM and my dad was like "he's up the street chilling with his friends" and she'd go on a tear talking about how could he let me go out at night when she hears all this stuff going on blah blah blah kids /people dying left and right and cadavres are in the streets yaddi yaddi yaggah and my dad would walk all the way to my friends house and be like " Come home and call your mother so she can shut the fukk up in my fukking ear"
News media will often show something that happened in one part of the city but make it seem like the whole country is ablaze. I lived in Carrefour for a wile and Delmas for a short while. These were working and middle class type areas with some poor areas in between them here and there so it's not like we were in Tabarre in some elite neighborhoods or some shyt yet shyt was calm. We were usually in the street, in the dark (rolling blackouts) and just chilling or studying together.
Please understand: When i say i've lived in Haiti im not trying to be any kind of way. But you have to understand that some of you who never lived there or in some cases even been there often view things in foreign countries through the lenses of the american perspective. While that has some good to have an outside input certain things dont always apply or at least not how you think it should.
My reason for saying that was when i lived in Haiti with my dad, my mother (who was living in Miami) would often call the house panicking because she had heard shyt in the news that made it seem every day was a massacre. She'd call the house at 9PM and my dad was like "he's up the street chilling with his friends" and she'd go on a tear talking about how could he let me go out at night when she hears all this stuff going on blah blah blah kids /people dying left and right and cadavres are in the streets yaddi yaddi yaggah and my dad would walk all the way to my friends house and be like " Come home and call your mother so she can shut the fukk up in my fukking ear"
News media will often show something that happened in one part of the city but make it seem like the whole country is ablaze. I lived in Carrefour for a wile and Delmas for a short while. These were working and middle class type areas with some poor areas in between them here and there so it's not like we were in Tabarre in some elite neighborhoods or some shyt yet shyt was calm. We were usually in the street, in the dark (rolling blackouts) and just chilling or studying together.
What type of businesses? Were they large capital generating institutions?
I feel bad for what happened to your father's business but how large of a busines was it? Because this attack on the bank seemed to have caused a shockwave throughout the country.
Were these busineses benefiting the poor? That's the question. Because many Haitians on twitter(and yes they are from Haiti) argue this foriegn businesses do nothing to help the poor. Not my words but theirs.
Heck I believe @loyola llothta addressed that these businesses really did not help the poor.
To be perfectly honest... And you're going to disagree but that's really the only option they have unless Russia, Cuba or Venezuela gets politically involved and help the protesters. This tactic also helped eject Baby Doc. The real issue I see is the Elites being backed by the core group. Haiti is not getting any beneficial investments that help the poor until that mafioso group is removed/purged.
I agree the media does sometimes exaggerate but me and others certainly are not looking through this solely through the lenses of an American. I am also aware that some on the opposition side are just as corrupt and no good.
you misunderstood. My father's business was not attacked. But he was a contractor that did work for ERF and sometimes the Haitian government itself up until 1999 when he passed.
those businesses were not there to help the poor. They were there to make money. It's up to the Haitian government to set standards and give them tax breaks or other advantages to in exchange for them to help the poor. There is a difference. Capitalism can benefit socialism but capitalist have to be given incentives to do so. That's where the state, the government comes in. It's for the Haitian government to look out for its own people and demand certain things in the exchange of people coming to open businesses in Haiti
see my previous response.
I understand they have no other option. We all are people that was born out of violence and violence is how we've always handled things. My problem is often all violence is misdirected or out of control.
All these elite bourgeois that we have issues with corrupting the country could easily be gotten and easily disappear if the shyt was organized.
get these nets
Veteran
@intruder v6.1 ,
You make several good points. The key one is that, even after being briefed, informed, and corrected that some may still view things through lenses that don't apply.
I've seen this with people applauding riots in Haiti. Unlike Western countries where businesses are fully insured, and there are safety nets to protect workers affected by such incidents..in Haiti...a business burned down means that owner and workers are screwed .
You make several good points. The key one is that, even after being briefed, informed, and corrected that some may still view things through lenses that don't apply.
I've seen this with people applauding riots in Haiti. Unlike Western countries where businesses are fully insured, and there are safety nets to protect workers affected by such incidents..in Haiti...a business burned down means that owner and workers are screwed .
Exactly!!!!
To people here thiley think " you want a car you get a car loan" or "your car gets stolen your insurance pays you back" or " you lose your job you get unemployed" or " you're sick use your medical insurance from your job"...
NOT
Those elite aren't the only ones who are victimized by the violence and looting.
And with @Jesus is my protector's mention of company "helping the poor". Companies don't owe you shyt. As an elected citizen it's your elected representative's duty to give companies incentives to provide benefits such as good work conditions and benefits and so on and so forth. But with all these corrupt politicians who just take bribes and look the other way the people never benefit. But problem is they have their own supporters who will reelect them because he's been to to their neighborhood or their block or whatever. The problem is not as simple as it seems from an American perspective. The people in Haiti not only need non-corrupt officials but they need to be better educated to do a better job not being blinded by some of these corrupt officials for their votes. How freaking Sweet Micky got elected is beyond me to this day. Any one with any sort of popularity can be elected to office all the sudden
@loyola llothta I wanna hear your thoughts on all this.
The businesses that have been attacked are owned by those elites.
Buh... buh... "American perspective!"
The businesses that have been attacked are owned by those elites.
Buh... buh... "American perspective!"