Essential The Official Comic Book Discussion Thread [Support @Neuromancer’s book!]

parallax

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I know there are better fighters than bats but an 11 year old better detective :laff:

dont count bendis out. she'll be figuring things out bruce never could. i mean if he has a kid hack the lantern, were gonna hae a kid that finds out that joe chill was paid to kill his parents then brainwiped, and thomas wayne isnt his real father
 

TrueEpic08

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Lapsed comics fan taking a dip back into the mainstream comics pool I abandoned long ago...

So I randomly decided to catch up with the X-Men comics in advance of Hickman's run (I grew up with the classic Claremont run and was a teenager when Morrison did his New X-Men run; they're my favorite mainstream comic property ever) and holy fukking shyt this Uncanny X-Men run is ridiculously bad. :dead:

These motherfukkers had 11 issues to fill after X-Men Disassembled (which I didn't even read since the title reminded me of Avengers Disassembled, a story I loathe and see as the root of everything wrong with mainstream comics these days) and they decide to publish an awful, overly dark Operation: Zero Tolerance riff? :mjlol: Everything sucks, mutants are being hunted by the government and slowly being rendered extinct, and a makeshift team of X-Men are living on the edge trying to survive and fight back against the system...spare me, we've seen it before. :camby:

Age of X-Man actually has a legitimately interesting conceit and had me reading intently for the first 3 issues of each series (say what you will about some of the cockamamie parings, but the writing and characterization is fairly good. The writers make be believe in Nate Grey's false utopia and care about the outcomes of this inconsequential little "event"), but then the plot kicked in and people had to be shuttled toward the end goal of punching up Nate (or whatever the hell the climax is), so the conflicts and storytelling got ever more arbitrary and my interest waned. I'd be interested in a graphic novel or limited series exploring this world more, though. For what I thought would be a pointless 4th tier Age of Apocalypse ripoff a la Age of X (and Marvel advertised it as such), it's not bad at all.

Hopefully Hickman has actual original ideas for this run of his, because we haven't really seen many of those since Morrison's run, which was almost 20 years ago now. Hell, we've barely had good X-Men comics since 2012, for fukk's sake. I hope Marvel finally throws X-Men fans a bone after years of shytting on the line, but since the only Marvel book I care for these days is Immortal Hulk (which is similar enough to the Bruce Jones Incredible Hulk run that I'm just fearing a similar horrific decline in quality and genuinely insulting ending) and I don't hold Hickman in nearly the same regard as most comic fans (but that may just be my general loathing of present day mainstream comics showing), I'm not going to be overly optimistic about everything working out.
 

Wargames

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I’m going to keep it 100 the last X-Men run I really enjoyed was Whedon’s run. Then they had a spark with Utopia and Scott saying “fukk it, we don’t need humans” and they threw that out by killing him. Even the young X-Men was interesting but they threw that out quick.

They need a reboot and some legit threats beside extinction from some unseen cure/disease, or
Scarlet Witch going on a rampage.
 

BXKingPin82

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TrueEpic08

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I’m going to keep it 100 the last X-Men run I really enjoyed was Whedon’s run. Then they had a spark with Utopia and Scott saying “fukk it, we don’t need humans” and they threw that out by killing him. Even the young X-Men was interesting but they threw that out quick.

They need a reboot and some legit threats beside extinction from some unseen cure/disease, or
Scarlet Witch going on a rampage.

The more I think about Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run, the less I like it, specifically because it ran far, far away from how Morrison had pushed the mutant concept forward in favor of the extinction threat/superheroics/spandex deal it tried desperately to leave behind.

What Morrison built his run on was actually a very different question from almost any other major X-Men run: instead of the question being "how do mutants deal with being hated and feared by a world they feel obligated to protect and integrate into," the question was "given the fact that mutantkind is ascendant and humans will be functionally extinct within three generations, how does the mission of the X-Men change and how does the world and its sociocultural strictures change along with it?" This is why you have storylines like "Riot at Xavier's," why Mutant Town gets introduced in this run (I really didn't like Marvel doing away with this), and why there are so many outright ugly and hideous mutants to contrast with the very human looking ones the comics follow for the most part. It's why the school is such an important undercurrent in the run (what does education look like for kids that can function as tactical nukes, anyway?). There was a focus on how the world was changing in favor of the mutants and how everyone adapted to it (the U-Men being mutant haters who attempted to acquire mutant powers and Weapon Plus's constant mutant experimentation, for instance. Remind you of anything?). It's telling that some of the best X-Men comics and concepts since 2004 often borrowed heavily from Morrison in one way or another (Utopia partially, but definitely Wolverine and the X-Men's school setting. Hell, Quentin Quire's even a main character there).

Even Scott's militant persona spins out of his Morrison-era drama (how does a guy deal with being merged with a genocidal tyrant for months and not totally feeling comfortable sharing his damage regarding that with his wife, particularly when he's kind of depended on her telepathy to communicate with her since they were kids? Find another telepath to talk to). And it' not as if other writers didn't gesture towards interesting ideas with it (again, Utopia being the most interesting manifestation of it, in my opinion. I never quite liked Terrorist Scott). The problem here, of course, is that they'd either retreat to some status quo when it got too hairy, or they'd use his newfound character traits as a means for promoting the real IP assets in their eyes (Avengers and Inhumans. It's one of the reasons I basically look at all 2010s Avengers and Inhumans properties with the worst kind of scorn. They could all be erased from history forever and I wouldn't care at all). And even beyond all that the militant Scott stories still dealt with that same tired-ass "hated and feared" question I thought we left behind in 2001.

The X-Men, and really mainstream comics in general, are desperately in need of new ideas, and Hickman's absolutely right when he says that most X-Men writers over the last 15-plus years have been writing nothing but stories about other X-Men stories. I'm not sure I have faith in Hickman providing a reasonable alternative (his stories tend to be soulless exercises in stringing together masses of ideas with barely even perfunctory stories, characters, and settings. The concepts are there, and the gadgets and worlds will look impressive, but nothing is developed with enough care or personality to make me give a shyt. It's just an ideas exhibition for the sake of exhibiting ideas), but hopefully it won't be any worse than the last few years of stories.
 

BXKingPin82

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The more I think about Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run, the less I like it, specifically because it ran far, far away from how Morrison had pushed the mutant concept forward in favor of the extinction threat/superheroics/spandex deal it tried desperately to leave behind.

What Morrison built his run on was actually a very different question from almost any other major X-Men run: instead of the question being "how do mutants deal with being hated and feared by a world they feel obligated to protect and integrate into," the question was "given the fact that mutantkind is ascendant and humans will be functionally extinct within three generations, how does the mission of the X-Men change and how does the world and its sociocultural strictures change along with it?" This is why you have storylines like "Riot at Xavier's," why Mutant Town gets introduced in this run (I really didn't like Marvel doing away with this), and why there are so many outright ugly and hideous mutants to contrast with the very human looking ones the comics follow for the most part. It's why the school is such an important undercurrent in the run (what does education look like for kids that can function as tactical nukes, anyway?). There was a focus on how the world was changing in favor of the mutants and how everyone adapted to it (the U-Men being mutant haters who attempted to acquire mutant powers and Weapon Plus's constant mutant experimentation, for instance. Remind you of anything?). It's telling that some of the best X-Men comics and concepts since 2004 often borrowed heavily from Morrison in one way or another (Utopia partially, but definitely Wolverine and the X-Men's school setting. Hell, Quentin Quire's even a main character there).

Even Scott's militant persona spins out of his Morrison-era drama (how does a guy deal with being merged with a genocidal tyrant for months and not totally feeling comfortable sharing his damage regarding that with his wife, particularly when he's kind of depended on her telepathy to communicate with her since they were kids? Find another telepath to talk to). And it' not as if other writers didn't gesture towards interesting ideas with it (again, Utopia being the most interesting manifestation of it, in my opinion. I never quite liked Terrorist Scott). The problem here, of course, is that they'd either retreat to some status quo when it got too hairy, or they'd use his newfound character traits as a means for promoting the real IP assets in their eyes (Avengers and Inhumans. It's one of the reasons I basically look at all 2010s Avengers and Inhumans properties with the worst kind of scorn. They could all be erased from history forever and I wouldn't care at all). And even beyond all that the militant Scott stories still dealt with that same tired-ass "hated and feared" question I thought we left behind in 2001.

The X-Men, and really mainstream comics in general, are desperately in need of new ideas, and Hickman's absolutely right when he says that most X-Men writers over the last 15-plus years have been writing nothing but stories about other X-Men stories. I'm not sure I have faith in Hickman providing a reasonable alternative (his stories tend to be soulless exercises in stringing together masses of ideas with barely even perfunctory stories, characters, and settings. The concepts are there, and the gadgets and worlds will look impressive, but nothing is developed with enough care or personality to make me give a shyt. It's just an ideas exhibition for the sake of exhibiting ideas), but hopefully it won't be any worse than the last few years of stories.
Great post.
:smoothhoffa:
 

Dusty Bake Activate

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I’m going to keep it 100 the last X-Men run I really enjoyed was Whedon’s run. Then they had a spark with Utopia and Scott saying “fukk it, we don’t need humans” and they threw that out by killing him. Even the young X-Men was interesting but they threw that out quick.

They need a reboot and some legit threats beside extinction from some unseen cure/disease, or
Scarlet Witch going on a rampage.
Rick Remember on Uncanny X-Force was spectacular.

Kieron Gillen on Uncanny X-Men was good and showed potential but it didn’t last long cause of AVX.

Messiah Complex and Second Coming were solid reading to me as well.

Whedon did come the closest to fukking with Morrison’s run though.
 

Mortal1

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Rick Remember on Uncanny X-Force was spectacular.

Kieron Gillen on Uncanny X-Men was good and showed potential but it didn’t last long cause of AVX.

Messiah Complex and Second Coming were solid reading to me as well.

Whedon did come the closest to fukking with Morrison’s run though.
Uncanny X-force and Avengers by Remender was amazing :wow:
That era of X-men comics was pretty good for a while.
 

TrueEpic08

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Rick Remember on Uncanny X-Force was spectacular.

Kieron Gillen on Uncanny X-Men was good and showed potential but it didn’t last long cause of AVX.

Messiah Complex and Second Coming were solid reading to me as well.

Whedon did come the closest to fukking with Morrison’s run though.

I might need to read Uncanny X-Force back at some point, because that run never totally clicked with me the way it clicked with others. I thought it was good on the whole (the first couple of arcs, at least) and had some very interesting ideas going for it (the fact that it even touched The World at all pleased me, and they way Remender used it definitely had me engaged), but I also found it greatly overhyped and kind of ponderous at points. The Dark Angel Saga, for instance, felt overlong for no reason and ended with a literal reset of Angel's character (as opposed to being forced to just kill him), which I didn't like at all.Again, I do remember liking the first two arcs before DAS bored me into dropping it, though, so maybe time will be kind to it if I just read it as one long narrative.

I'm a big Gillen fan (Phonogram's one of my favorite comics of the 2000s and I've quite liked The Wicked + The Divine despite how uneven it got at points), but I've always preferred him on his own creator owned work than on Big 2 properties. His X-Men run felt curiously inert to me, but he also always seemed to be servicing some event more than writing his own stories. And as I said above, I was not a fan of the more terroristic/militant direction Cyclops took during this run (again, I'm not sure how much to blame him for that since the whole company seemed to move him in that direction).

I actually read the major comics of that whole era of X-Men from Endangered Species to Second Coming as one long story, and it actually works pretty well as a single sustained narrative (again, haven't read it in a while). I think its overall fallout was more negative than positive (contributing to both the continuity locked crossover mania that I so hate, as well as being a crown jewel retrograde "Hated, Feared, and Hunted" X-Men story that they'd been dealing with since House of X), but there's definitely good, worthwhile stuff there. Another one I might want to reread if I have the time.

And I could write a long, long essay on how Whedon's ruined mainstream comics culture in general. My thoughts on that Astonishing run are similar to my thoughts on Mark Millar's Ultimates run: very good comics by themselves, maybe even great comics depending on your perspective. But their historical consequences were so negative and deleterious for the medium as a whole that a part of me can do nothing but hold them in utter contempt.
 

Primetime

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The more I think about Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run, the less I like it, specifically because it ran far, far away from how Morrison had pushed the mutant concept forward in favor of the extinction threat/superheroics/spandex deal it tried desperately to leave behind.

What Morrison built his run on was actually a very different question from almost any other major X-Men run: instead of the question being "how do mutants deal with being hated and feared by a world they feel obligated to protect and integrate into," the question was "given the fact that mutantkind is ascendant and humans will be functionally extinct within three generations, how does the mission of the X-Men change and how does the world and its sociocultural strictures change along with it?" This is why you have storylines like "Riot at Xavier's," why Mutant Town gets introduced in this run (I really didn't like Marvel doing away with this), and why there are so many outright ugly and hideous mutants to contrast with the very human looking ones the comics follow for the most part. It's why the school is such an important undercurrent in the run (what does education look like for kids that can function as tactical nukes, anyway?). There was a focus on how the world was changing in favor of the mutants and how everyone adapted to it (the U-Men being mutant haters who attempted to acquire mutant powers and Weapon Plus's constant mutant experimentation, for instance. Remind you of anything?). It's telling that some of the best X-Men comics and concepts since 2004 often borrowed heavily from Morrison in one way or another (Utopia partially, but definitely Wolverine and the X-Men's school setting. Hell, Quentin Quire's even a main character there).

Even Scott's militant persona spins out of his Morrison-era drama (how does a guy deal with being merged with a genocidal tyrant for months and not totally feeling comfortable sharing his damage regarding that with his wife, particularly when he's kind of depended on her telepathy to communicate with her since they were kids? Find another telepath to talk to). And it' not as if other writers didn't gesture towards interesting ideas with it (again, Utopia being the most interesting manifestation of it, in my opinion. I never quite liked Terrorist Scott). The problem here, of course, is that they'd either retreat to some status quo when it got too hairy, or they'd use his newfound character traits as a means for promoting the real IP assets in their eyes (Avengers and Inhumans. It's one of the reasons I basically look at all 2010s Avengers and Inhumans properties with the worst kind of scorn. They could all be erased from history forever and I wouldn't care at all). And even beyond all that the militant Scott stories still dealt with that same tired-ass "hated and feared" question I thought we left behind in 2001.

The X-Men, and really mainstream comics in general, are desperately in need of new ideas, and Hickman's absolutely right when he says that most X-Men writers over the last 15-plus years have been writing nothing but stories about other X-Men stories. I'm not sure I have faith in Hickman providing a reasonable alternative (his stories tend to be soulless exercises in stringing together masses of ideas with barely even perfunctory stories, characters, and settings. The concepts are there, and the gadgets and worlds will look impressive, but nothing is developed with enough care or personality to make me give a shyt. It's just an ideas exhibition for the sake of exhibiting ideas), but hopefully it won't be any worse than the last few years of stories.

Dap + rep
 

Primetime

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I don't even fukk with x-men but 3 runs stood out to me just from pure story telling last 20 years.

1. Morrison's New X-Men

2. Remender's Uncanny X-Force

3. The whole Hope/Cable saga from like '07 to '09. <-- but of course the character assassination they did on Bishop, only for it to be dropped and him shelved with no meaning or redemption... is still one of the more disgusting hit jobs on a black character in modern times.


That aside, I guess these runs stood out to me bc at the time i felt like change was coming... even tho in retrospect all 3 epics were largely pump fakes. Warren living at the end (or being reborn, whatever) i felt was a cop out, Bendis had Wanda undo all that mutants taking over stuff, and Hope never amounted to shyt compared to how big a deal they'd been hyping her for years. She the '00s version of Harold Miner.

But part of that is modern comics i guess.
 
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