The Official Anabolic Thread

[Waterproof]

When NOT to Run PCT
If you’re a hardcore steroid user, meaning you’re on cycle more than you’re off, running a PCT can be counter productive. For example, a man completes a cycle, implements PCT and then jumps back on cycle right after or soon after PCT. This is a very harsh practice and terrible for your body. You are shutting down your natural testosterone production, stimulating it through PCT and then shutting it right back down. You’ve put yourself on a never ending rollercoaster with your hormone levels that’s going to wreak havoc on your body. For such an individual he would be better off running a low dose of testosterone, therapeutic levels, during his time between cycles. This is not an approach most men should take. Most men who use steroids need to come off and stay off after PCT is complete for a time if long-term health is important to them.

Another time not to run PCT is if you are a low testosterone patient. A low testosterone patient has no natural ability to produce enough testosterone on his own, which is why he needs testosterone supplementation. If he happens to implement a cycle at some point during his treatment, once the cycle is over he should simply continue on with his previous Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT). If you implement a PCT plan you’re only attempting to stimulate what is naturally a low level, and it will serve no purpose.

PCT Medications
There are many medications that can be theoretically used for PCT but only two that should be primary, Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) and Clomiphene (Clomid). Both Nolvadex and Clomid fall in the class of drugs known as Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs). As with all SERMs ‘Nolva’ and Clomid stimulate the release of LH and FSH thereby increasing natural testosterone production. For most PCT plans these will be the only two medications needed.

HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadatropin) is also sometimes used during the PCT phase. When supplementing with testosterone, especially in modern times, many men include low doses of HCG in their steroid cycles, normally 250-350iu a couple times per week. HCG mimics LH and therefore actually keeps the testicles producing testosterone even when anabolic steroids are present. However, it does not induce the production of actual LH. The use of HCG on cycle, this is primarily done so that post cycle recovery is easier (theoretically). HCG is also used on cycle to prevent or at least minimize testicular atrophy that occurs due to the use of anabolic steroids. The testicular atrophy that occurs is not permanent but will reverse once steroid use is discontinued and natural testosterone production begins again.

If HCG is used on cycle there is no need to use it post cycle. However, some men will not use HCG during their cycle for a variety of reasons. Although it is not extremely common, HCG use can increase estradiol levels significantly in some men even with the use of an Aromatase Inhibitor (AI). AI’s are regularly used to combat estrogenic issues during a cycle, but it’s generally best to keep them as minimal as possible. If HCG is not used on cycle it may be the preamble to the PCT plan in some cases. We’ll go over this more later.

AI’s are also sometimes used during PCT because of their ability to stimulate LH and FSH. However, they also lower estrogen levels and often too much during this phase. Part of the PCT plan is to allow the body to normalize and part of that is maintaining normal estrogen levels. Estrogen is not an evil hormone many men, especially steroid users often believe it is. Estrogen is extremely important for muscle building, sexual health, mental health and a host of other areas. Estrogen levels that are too high or too low, both can be very problematic.

 

[Waterproof]

When to Start PCT
Timing is a very important factor when it comes to PCT. If all short ester base steroids are used, such as Testosterone Propionate, Trenbolone Acetate, etc. PCT should begin 3-4 days after your last injection. However, if any long or large ester base steroids are used, such as Testosterone Cypionate, Nandrolone Decanoate, etc. you’ll want to wait at least 14 days before beginning PCT. If Nandrolone Decanoate is used it may not be a bad idea to wait a full 21 days before beginning PCT.

If HCG is used as part of the PCT plan (generally not recommended if used on cycle) if all short ester base steroids are used HCG use will begin approximately 3 days after your last injection and last for 10 days of treatment. If any large ester base steroids are used HCG will begin approximately 10 days after your last injection and last for 10 days of treatment. In either case, once HCG use is complete the use of SERMs will immediately begin.

SERM Plan
Both Nolvadex and Clomid stimulate LH and FSH, but Nolvadex does more for LH and Clomid more of FSH. A solid PCT plan will generally include both SERMs. 4-6 weeks of treatment is normally sufficient. A good plan to follow would be 100mg of Clomid per day for two weeks with 40mg of Nolvadex per day for Two weeks. This will be followed by 50mg of Clomid per day for two weeks and 20mg of Nolvadex per day for two weeks. An additional two weeks of Nolvadex at 20mg per day may be added if needed.

Week 1-2: Clomid 100mg per day

Week 1-2: Nolvadex 40mg per day

Week 3-4: Clomid 50mg per day

Week 3-4: Nolvadex 20mg per day

(Optional) Week 5-6: Nolvadex 20mg per day

When to Start Your Next Cycle

For optimal health the general rule to follow is time on equals time off. If your cycle last 10 weeks and your PCT plan last 4 weeks you will wait 14 weeks before starting a new cycle. A mistake many men make is saying testosterone levels have recovered and it is now Okay to start a new cycle. If you do this you have not allowed your body time to normalize.

 

[Waterproof]

Blood Work
It’s always a good idea to get blood work done after PCT to see where your body is at; however, this won’t be the full story. When we run a PCT we are artificially stimulating natural testosterone production – the stimulation would not exist without the implementation of SERMs. The true tale of the tape is where your numbers are after a good bit of time has passed; say several months.

The Most Common Myth
It can take several months for you testosterone levels to recover and hold post steroid use and post PCT. The common myth some hold to is that once PCT is complete and levels are up this means everything is good to go. As we discussed above, true recovery means your levels can hold without any type of supplementation, if not then full recovery has not been reached.

The Danger
If you’re going to supplement with anabolic steroids there is one single truth you need to understand, risks exists. One of these risks is permanently lowering your natural testosterone production and forever being in need of TRT. Even with the best PCT plan in the world this risk exists. The point of PCT is to help and minimize this risk; it does not completely remove it. If this is something you cannot accept then anabolic steroid use is not for you.

 

[Suge Knight]

I'm already looking into my next cycle

My next cycle is going to be an Old School Mass, Size, Strength Cycle

Test E, Deca and D-Bol

I wanna get on the d-bol just as an experience.. Just worried about finding a good source

 

[Waterproof]

I wanna get on the d-bol just as an experience.. Just worried about finding a good source

Will it be your first Run with any Anabolics

 

[Waterproof]

Anabolic Steroid Cycles
An Experts Guide to Optimum Use




Testosterone: Sprint or Marathon?

Ancient cultures spread learning through spoken lore, as much of the population could not read. Given the literacy trends of the last decade or two, this educational style may return. A collection of such tales has iconic status, known as Aesop's Fables. [Aesop was a slave who lived in Greek society approximately 600 B.C.] One of his most well known is the race between the tortoise and the hare. After ridiculing the ponderous tortoise and challenging him to a race, the hare (a rabbit for those not familiar with the term) sprinted ahead but stopped for a rest. When he realized he had goofed off too long, he ran as fast as he could, only to see the tortoise crossing the line before him. The moral of the story is slow and steady wins the race.

Consider for a moment the typical use pattern of testosterone (and other anabolic-androgenic steroids, or AAS)— it is hare-like. Bodybuilders have been programmed by gym lore to follow eight- to 12-week high-dosed AAS cycles to maximize muscle and strength gains. While it is unquestionable that most men do achieve considerable growth and strength enhancement during AAS cycles, it is also very common for these gains to be temporary, with long-term mass and strength retention that is much less than the peak experienced during the cycle. Further, in the rush to acquire maximal growth during a cycle, injuries are common and dosages are pushed into a range wherein adverse side effects occur. Some of these side effects can be mitigated with the use of adjunct drugs (e.g., aromatase inhibitors), but many could be avoided if lower doses were used. Also, these types of cycles can wreak havoc on the mental state and mood of the user/abuser. Lastly, it is nearly certain that such cycles will result in the suppression of natural testosterone (and sperm) production of variable duration. Some men recover from AAS cycles quickly, especially if they tapered correctly; others may suffer from months of depressed mood, loss of strength, sexual problems, etc. In rare cases, this can become permanent or require specialized medical treatment.

Rumors of bodybuilders who are “always on” have circulated since the 1980s, if not earlier. However, the practice is now spoken of more commonly. “On” does not mean these bodybuilders are on nonstop cycles, rather that they are “bridging” between cycles with replacement dosing of testosterone to avoid the setbacks that occur during the post-cycle recovery. Given the dosing and duration of the cycles used by some, it is possible that post-cycle recovery could take many months. Instead, they “bridge” for a month or two at most between supraphysiologic mass-gaining or competition cycles. It would be interesting to compare the rate of professional bodybuilders fathering children during their competitive years now versus 20 or 30 years ago. The increased prevalence of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) use during cycles to maintain testicular size and Leydig cell function offers little in maintaining fertility as the Sertoli cells, which are involved in sperm production, are stimulated by a different hormone (FSH); hCG mimics the Leydig cell-associated pituitary hormone, luteinizing hormone (LH).



Safer Testosterone Cycles

Fertility aside, one needs to look at the pattern of testosterone use with a more critical eye. Is it possible that the common cycles are less effective than alternate patterns? Is it possible that a long duration of testosterone exposure is necessary to obtain the maximum benefits? If this were the case, and it does appear to be so, then perhaps those abusing AAS could be convinced to accept relatively safer and more responsible cycles. Of course, there can never be an absolute guarantee of 100 percent safe drug use of any sort. Exogenous testosterone or AAS use of any concentration holds the potential to render a man infertile or affect mood. This discussion does not condone illicit AAS use or offer medical advice.

It is an indication of how retarded, meaning delayed, the state of clinical research relating to testosterone is when one considers that pharmaceutical companies and physicians do not have a firm grasp of the proper dosing or treatment course. So, it is with great interest that the review of Farid Saad and colleagues titled, “Onset of effects of treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved,” published in the European Journal of Endocrinology was received.1 It is underappreciated how many systems in the body depend upon a healthy testosterone status, much like insulin or cortisol. Too little testosterone and many tissues in the body do not function well; too much and different effects emerge that are equally unhealthy. In the established manner of erring on the side of caution, clinical medicine tends not to treat testosterone deficiency unless it has reached a concentration low enough to allow for the health of an individual to be threatened. Sadly, physicians are advised not to screen men for testosterone deficiency unless symptoms are present that are considered relevant by the established professional societies.2 Unfortunately, they focus on the sexual effects of testosterone and generally dismiss other systemic effects. The muscle-building effect of testosterone is considered to be non-therapeutic and representative of abuse unless treating a wasting condition.3

To fully benefit from the application of therapeutic testosterone replacement, one needs to encourage the patient to allow several months to years for the body to accommodate to the revised hormonal balance. Unfortunately, the primary signals monitored by the physician and patient are erectile function and libido. Again, problems in these areas may emerge while the testosterone concentration is still “normal.” Or the problems may not emerge until testosterone concentrations are pathologically low, and respond rapidly to a minor increase— at times subphysiologic. Failing to appreciate the need for a longer duration of treatment, and more aggressive dosing, to meet the needs of other organs and tissue is a failure of current male hormone replacement therapy. It has been speculated that there are two separate dose-response curves— one at low concentrations, the other at higher concentrations; this would support considering elevating testosterone to high-normal concentrations rather than a minimal threshold. Let's look at the findings of Dr. Saad and colleagues.



Testosterone Deficiency a Complex Picture

There has been no concerted effort to delineate the timeline of testosterone's action, forcing Saad’s group to combine numerous studies with a preference toward randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials. In addition to sexual function, testosterone's effects on the following were reviewed: red blood cells, prostate, cholesterol and triglycerides, insulin sensitivity, fat mass, lean mass, strength, bone density, quality of life and mood. As the authors astutely noted, there is no specific threshold for symptoms of testosterone deficiency; some symptoms show up before others are affected. This is further compounded by the fact that many testosterone-related symptoms are affected by other factors as well. One example— erections are not solely dependent upon testosterone concentration, but also vascular function, nerves, psychological state and social relationships. In fact, erectile function is not affected by testosterone deficiency until it reaches a concentration of 8 nmol/L, (230 ng/dL).4 This is very low. In contrast, the libido is affected when testosterone drops below 15 nmol/L (430 ng/dL). The anabolic effects of testosterone may not be realized until the concentration reaches 700 ng/ml.3 These numbers can vary widely among individuals, confusing matters even more so.

It is interesting that the use of “percentage rise” dosing is suggested in the review.1,3 In plain English, this is basing the target testosterone concentration on the concentration at which the patient reports symptoms. If a person has low testosterone symptoms at a level of 250, he may be dosed to reach a concentration of 350-400; another person with symptoms at a level of 400 may need to be dosed to maintain a concentration of 600 before experiencing benefit. Age of onset may be an issue as well.

Looking in more detail into the findings of Saad et al., they note that certain variables affect an individual's response to testosterone replacement— the pharmacodynamics of the type of testosterone used and the pharmacogenomics of the patient. The first refers to how quickly testosterone is released to the bloodstream, how high a peak concentration is reached and how long an elevated concentration can be maintained. The second relates to how the individual responds to testosterone based on his unique DNA. This is critical for the physician to keep in mind, but for the reader it is beyond the scope of the article.

It is easiest to summarize the time course of effects in a table, as presented herein.

 

[Waterproof]

Onset and Maximum Benefit of Testosterone*

Muscle Mass/Strength 12-20 weeks; 6-12 months

Reduced Fat Mass 12 weeks; 24 months

Increased Exercise Capacity 12 weeks; 12 months

Bone Mineral Density 6 months; 36+ months

Decreased Total Cholesterol 4 weeks; 12 months

Decreased LDL (bad) Cholesterol 12 weeks; 24 months

Decreased Triglycerides 4 weeks; 12 months

Increased HDL (good) Cholesterol 12 weeks; 24 months

Reducing Elevated Fasting Glucose 1 week; 12 months

Reduced Insulin Resistance 1 week; 12 months

Reduced Blood Pressure/Pulse 12 weeks; 12 months

Arterial Dilation 12 weeks; 40 weeks

Reduced Inflammation 3 weeks; 24 months

Erectile Function 2 weeks; 12 months

Quality of Life 4 weeks; 24 months

Improved Mood 3 weeks; 18-30 months

Red Blood Cells 3 months; 12 months

Prostate (PSA) 3 months; 6 months

*Replacement dosing in testosterone-deficient men.

What is clear from the pattern is that testosterone’s effects on mental functions and mood, as well as vascular effects, are rapid. Increases in libido, quality of life, depressive mood, cholesterol and triglycerides occur within three to four weeks, though additional benefits can be gained for months before the maximum benefit is reached. This suggests that the effects of testosterone in these areas are related to non-genomic effects.5 This means that certain cell types are able to respond to testosterone immediately, much like the heart begins racing as soon as the shock of adrenalin kicks in. Most other effects related to testosterone take longer to be realized and the maximum benefit may not be realized for months to years. This includes the anabolic effects of testosterone on muscle and bone, increase strength and red blood cell mass, as well as reduction in body fat (especially abdominal fat). Improvements in insulin sensitivity are initially rapid, but continue over time as related changes improve (e.g., reduced liver fat, lower inflammation, increase in muscle mass). These slower changes are dependent on testosterone activating beneficial genes and suppressing adverse (harmful) genes that slowly change the functional status of the specific tissue types involved (e.g., muscle, bone, fat).

For a man experiencing changes associated with declining testosterone, this is valuable information as it provides guidance as to how long it may take to see improvements with replacement therapy. An unintended benefit of this review may be in persuading men who have chosen to misuse testosterone or AAS to build muscle or increase strength to dose moderately, achieving equivalent or greater response over a longer period of time.

Before diving in, there are differences between the population of healthy young men with normal testosterone and aging men with low testosterone. Healthy young men might benefit slightly from a physiologic replacement dose of testosterone, but it would be like selling snow to Eskimos. Appreciable changes, particularly in muscle mass and strength, do require supraphysiologic dosing in young, healthy men. However, it does not require the exaggerated doses commonly reported.

 

[Waterproof]

Taking Exercise Out of the Equation

An interesting series of studies was reported in the last decade from the UCLA-affiliated Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, headed by Shalender Bhasin, M.D.6 It looked at the effect of various doses of testosterone enanthate for 20 weeks on a variety of parameters, including muscle size and strength. Note, the young men in this study (18-35 years old) all had normal testosterone at the start of the study. They were instructed not to exercise other than light aerobic activity. Thus, the effect of testosterone on muscle size and strength is solely based on the change in that hormone, not heavier lifting. Obviously, combining the effect noted with the training response to weightlifting would amplify the increases seen.

In this study, men receiving less than the replacement dose of testosterone (resulting in lower blood testosterone concentration), maintained muscle size and strength. Those receiving supraphysiologic testosterone (300 mg/week and 600 mg/week) experienced significant increases in size and strength, in a dose-dependent manner. Though no claims of safe use can be made, no significant adverse effects were noted, though HDL (good) cholesterol did drop. The authors noted that the doses were chosen based upon prior clinical studies, with 600 milligrams per week having been used safely previously. It was noted that certain functions (e.g., libido, erections, prostate) were maintained even at the lowest (below normal) testosterone dose, while muscle changes were only seen at the higher doses.

In closing, the hormonal yo-yo of eight-week cycles may result in temporary changes in size and strength, but requires aggressive dosing that is associated with many harmful effects. It appears that appreciable gains are delivered using more moderate dosing that has been safely administered for 20 weeks in small clinical studies, even in subjects who do not exercise. Bodybuilding and gym AAS use has been dominated by the “more is better” crowd needing immediate gratification. Safer and longer cycles, that are more effective, less risky and offer persisting results, may be the more intelligent approach. Again, this is not medical advice, nor does it condone illicit drug use. Instead, for those making the choice to use AAS, this may provide for a more informed decision.

 

[Suge Knight]

Will it be your first Run with any Anabolics

Yes, just wanna experiment a little.. I do not like needles lol

 

[Waterproof]

Yes, just wanna experiment a little.. I do not like needles lol

You got to run Test with D-Bol, D-Bol Alone will shut you down so damn quick. It's not advise to run D-Bol Alone

You got to get over that and Start Pinning, no matter what, you need Test.

I didn't like needles but got over it real quick

You might as well start with some Pro Hormones, there's some Good Pro Hormones our there, I know a few sites you can check that out, and you will get great Gainz

If you don't like Needles, you should look into Pro Hormones and SARMS

 

[Suge Knight]

You got to run Test with D-Bol, D-Bol Alone will shut you down so damn quick. It's not advise to run D-Bol Alone

You got to get over that and Start Pinning, no matter what, you need Test.

I didn't like needles but got over it real quick

You might as well start with some Pro Hormones, there's some Good Pro Hormones our there, I know a few sites you can check that out, and you will get great Gainz

If you don't like Needles, you should look into Pro Hormones and SARMS

I've been looking into sarms etc, I've been putting on muscle good just wanna get swole a little faster..

Been reading stuff on reddit and fitmisc, just cautious

 

[Waterproof]

I've been looking into sarms etc, I've been putting on muscle good just wanna get swole a little faster..

Been reading stuff on reddit and fitmisc, just cautious

SARMS and Pro Hormones especially Pro Hormones will put size on you quick, 10-20 pounds in a months time

Pro Hormones you take orally and it converts to a Steroid in your body

If you need a link to sites that sells them I got you just hit my inbox

 

[Waterproof]

Week 6 ~ Test Sus 600mg Week
Week 2 ~ Tren E 400mg Week

Just pinned 300mg of Test Sust and 200mg of Tren in my Quad about to hit the gym

Still waiting until everything start synching together.

 

[Waterproof]

The props are coming in. I was walking out the gym and I heard "Yo looking Good Big Dog, I see You"

And it was A brotha who trained Bodybuilders, his son Competes and he's trying to open up a Gym and have a crew of Hardcore Lifters

And I said I'm still trying to drop

He said you looked damn good, you putting on size

I was like right on O.G.

 

[Waterproof]

On this cycle I'm going to talk the good and the sides

1st Side ~ Acne I'm getting slight acne, this is normal for me, It clears up once I start using Acne Wash

2nd ~ Tren is a Strong Compound, So now my body is getting used to the Tren, when my body temperature goes up, I start getting an itching feeling all over my back, that's my body getting used to the compound, Non Drowsy Claritin helps with that, My body is getting used to The Tren so those sides is subsiding