The Lethal Presidency of Barack Obama

Spatial Paradox

All Star
Supporter
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
2,297
Reputation
1,130
Daps
12,172
Reppin
Brooklyn
I'd bet 90% of those people called "militants" are in fact militant.

:huh: Based on what evidence? Simply because the Obama administration classifies them as such?

Based on this reasoning, I could classify all males in the U.S. over the age of majority in their state who lives in high-crime neighborhoods as criminals. After all, criminals live amongst them and therefore, they must be criminals themselves.

This story depicts this young man as an innocent American citizen. I'm not buying it. If he was out "looking" for his father a known terrorist. Than you better believe he was involved with militant people.

:comeon:

So going out looking for a family member who's a ne'er-do-well means you must also be involved with ne'er-do-wells? Sorry, but I need some evidence of him being involved with militants beyond his father being a hateful preacher before I write off someone's death as being justified.

Good luck with that, since the administration won't even officially acknowledge his death.

Aside from all of that, do you not see the problem with the vesting the president and his administration with the power to target and kill American citizens without the flimsiest hint of due process or even oversight?

And I agree with you that violence begets violence but how do we stop it? People aren't going o stop being terrorists if we stop looking for them.

Of course people who are already opposed to us won't necessarily stop because we stop. What we can do is stop exacerbating the problem and causing more people to join the various causes against us.
 

MeachTheMonster

YourFriendlyHoodMonster
Joined
May 24, 2012
Messages
69,568
Reputation
3,794
Daps
109,526
Reppin
Tha Land
:huh: Based on what evidence? Simply because the Obama administration classifies them as such?

Pretty much :yeshrug: any other engagement we've been in was because intelligence told us to. I'm not saying the intelligence is valid, but to say this is something that just the Obama administration has done is just not true.

Based on this reasoning, I could classify all males in the U.S. over the age of majority in their state who lives in high-crime neighborhoods as criminals. After all, criminals live amongst them and therefore, they must be criminals themselves.

Umm, we pretty much are looked at as criminals. Just not dangerous terrorists so they lock us up instead of killing us.



So going out looking for a family member who's a ne'er-do-well means you must also be involved with ne'er-do-wells? :comeon:

Guilty by association, people go to jail for this all the time.

We've no evidence whatsoever that the kid was involved with militants in any way. And the administration won't even officially acknowledge that they've killed him, much less offer any evidence that his killing was justified.

Aside from all of that, do you not see the problem with the vesting the president and his administration with the power to target and kill American citizens without the flimsiest hint of due process or even oversight?

It's easy to keep calling these people American citezens but fact is they had defected a long time ago. And even if this young man wasn't involved in the activities there are 10 more American citizens that are. It's unfortanate but his dad was involved in recruiting American citizens for terrorist activity and he was out looking for his dad. Its not totally illogical to believe he was or would become involved. The only evidence that we have saying he was innocent was a statement by his family. I agree with you that sometimes the Gov. Oversteps there boundaries, but the obama administration isn't the first or last to do this. Yes warfare is changing, but the outcome is the same. Death, darkness, and the people second guessing those in power.



Of course people who are already opposed to us won't necessarily stop because we stop. What we can do is stop exacerbating the problem and causing more people to join the various causes against us.

Yeah it's a viscous cycle, but human kind has been going through this since the beginning of days. Maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't think it will ever stop.
 

Spatial Paradox

All Star
Supporter
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
2,297
Reputation
1,130
Daps
12,172
Reppin
Brooklyn
Pretty much :yeshrug: any other engagement we've been in was because intelligence told us to. I'm not saying the intelligence is valid, but to say this is something that just the Obama administration has done is just not true.

:huh:

That's the whole point. We have no one's word but the word of various figures in the Obama administration who've leaked information about the program to go on (because remember, the Obama administration doesn't officially acknowledge any of this). It wasn't quite 10 years ago that we started our misadventure in Iraq largely because of flimsy and/or faulty intelligence. And it's not the first time we've gone to war because of crappy intelligence (the escalation in Vietnam is another good example of this).

But in spite of this, you're saying I'm supposed to simply trust that because the administration says all males of military age in a given area are militants, they're militants?

Umm, we pretty much are looked at as criminals. Just not dangerous terrorists so they lock us up instead of killing us.

Which says nothing about whether it's fine to classify all males of military age in a "target area" as "militants". It's pretty obvious that it's just a convenient way of writing off any "collateral damage" as justifiable kills. If it isn't reprehensible, it's at least pretty damn dishonest and misleading.

Guilty by association, people go to jail for this all the time.

People don't get blown to pieces by UAV missiles all the time because of guilt by association.

It's easy to keep calling these people American citezens but fact is they had defected a long time ago. And even if this young man wasn't involved in the activities there are 10 more American citizens that are. It's unfortanate but his dad was involved in recruiting American citizens for terrorist activity and he was out looking for his dad. Its not totally illogical to believe he was or would become involved. The only evidence that we have saying he was innocent was a statement by his family.

A few things:

1. They never "defected" and to my knowledge, never renounced their U.S. citizenship.

2. Evidence of his innocence? I guess innocent until proven guilty is a thing of the past now…

He (supposedly) wasn't even the target of the drone strike that killed him. We have no evidence of him being a militant or being involved with militants. We've no evidence of him being involved in any kind of wrongdoing.

I agree with you that sometimes the Gov. Oversteps there boundaries, but the obama administration isn't the first or last to do this. Yes warfare is changing, but the outcome is the same. Death, darkness, and the people second guessing those in power.

The Obama administration is the first to claim the power to kill citizens without due process. Like Mikael Blowpiff already mentioned, this sets a precedent for future administrations. Whether you trust Obama with this power or not, he won't be in office forever. Others will occupy the office, and because of the precedent he's setting, they will also have this power.

Will Obama's successors be as restrained as the Obama administration claims to be when using this power? Do you trust future presidents to kill who they please, including American citizens?

Yeah it's a viscous cycle, but human kind has been going through this since the beginning of days. Maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't think it will ever stop.

It's not so much about stopping human violence (I'm certainly not optimistic of anything close to that ever happening), so much as it's about non adding to it. If there are going to be people who hate us and want to harm us, why give them (and more importantly, others who don't initially side with them) legitimate reasons for hating us?


No offense, but your responses are a pretty good example of why the mainstream media doesn't comment on these issues. Most Americans simply don't care or worse, approve of these things.
 

MeachTheMonster

YourFriendlyHoodMonster
Joined
May 24, 2012
Messages
69,568
Reputation
3,794
Daps
109,526
Reppin
Tha Land
:huh:

That's the whole point. We have no one's word but the word of various figures in the Obama administration who've leaked information about the program to go on (because remember, the Obama administration doesn't officially acknowledge any of this). It wasn't quite 10 years ago that we started our misadventure in Iraq largely because of flimsy and/or faulty intelligence. And it's not the first time we've gone to war because of crappy intelligence (the escalation in Vietnam is another good example of this).

But in spite of this, you're saying I'm supposed to simply trust that because the administration says all males of military age in a given area are militants, they're militants?



Which says nothing about whether it's fine to classify all males of military age in a "target area" as "militants". It's pretty obvious that it's just a convenient way of writing off any "collateral damage" as justifiable kills. If it isn't reprehensible, it's at least pretty damn dishonest and misleading.



People don't get blown to pieces by UAV missiles all the time because of guilt by association.



A few things:

1. They never "defected" and to my knowledge, never renounced their U.S. citizenship.

2. Evidence of his innocence? I guess innocent until proven guilty is a thing of the past now…

He (supposedly) wasn't even the target of the drone strike that killed him. We have no evidence of him being a militant or being involved with militants. We've no evidence of him being involved in any kind of wrongdoing.



The Obama administration is the first to claim the power to kill citizens without due process. Like Mikael Blowpiff already mentioned, this sets a precedent for future administrations. Whether you trust Obama with this power or not, he won't be in office forever. Others will occupy the office, and because of the precedent he's setting, they will also have this power.

Will Obama's successors be as restrained as the Obama administration claims to be when using this power? Do you trust future presidents to kill who they please, including American citizens?



It's not so much about stopping human violence (I'm certainly not optimistic of anything close to that ever happening), so much as it's about non adding to it. If there are going to be people who hate us and want to harm us, why give them (and more importantly, others who don't initially side with them) legitimate reasons for hating us?


No offense, but your responses are a pretty good example of why the mainstream media doesn't comment on these issues. Most Americans simply don't care or worse, approve of these things.

I agree with everything you are saying. I just have no faith that America will change. And I won't blame the Obama administration cause it has always been the American way. I do care, and I don't approve. But fact is it will never change.
 

ogc163

Superstar
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
9,027
Reputation
2,150
Daps
22,319
Reppin
Bronx, NYC
GLENN GREENWALD

In response to his widely discussed Esquire article entitled “The Lethal Presidency of Barack Obama,” Tom Junod received a telephone call from someone he describes as “a person with intimate knowledge of the executive counter-terrorism policies of the Obama administration.” This unnamed person called Junod specifically to defend the administration’s refusal to provide any minimal transparency or even acknowledgment about these policies, even when drone attacks ordered by the President kill innocent American teenagers such as 16-year-old Abdulrahman Awlaki. Junod summarizes the defense he was given by this source as follows:

“You seem to think that more transparency would help rectify some of the moral problems,” he said, and then told me that “the political people in the administration, including the president himself,” would probably agree with me.

And then he proceeded to explain why transparency was a goal difficult , if not impossible, to achieve, even when a simple acknowledgment would go a long way toward expiating the sin of killing an innocent American teenager in the course of a counterterrorism strike.

State secrecy, the man on the phone said, exists for a reason, and it’s generally not the reason that the Glenn Greenwalds of the world think it is — it’s not to cover up wrongdoing. It’s to protect two essential things: the sources and methods of the intelligence community, and something called “the requirement of non-acknowledgement”. . . .

Secrecy isn’t always the main driver here. Sometimes diplomacy is. “The requirement of non-acknowledgement” is. It’s very common for cooperation and consent to be drawn from other countries only if you don’t acknowledge something. They say, You can do this, but you can never acknowledge that you’re involved.

So there are deals — deals that have already been made. And part of the deal is that you don’t acknowledge the deal. If you do, then the country you made the deal with is obligated to do react [sic], because now there’s been a violation of sovereignty. The problem is that there are a lot of these kinds of deals, because they are so easy to make. They’re a little like allowing a source to go off the record in journalism. If the source asks, Can I go off the record?, you’ll say, Of course you can, because you want the source to talk. It’s the same in statecraft. You make the deal because you want there to be a deal.

It might sound trivial, he said. It might sound as though large principles are being sacrificed to the sensitivities of small nations. But everyone in the political branches considers non-acknowledgement to be the lifeblood of diplomacy.

The source’s first justification for total secrecy even when it involves extrajudicial killing of citizens — we need to protect sources and methods – is easily dispensed with, and Junod does so easily:

But nobody’s asking the Administration to reveal sources and methods here, I said. Nobody’s asking for anything but the ability to hold the administration accountable when it kills an American citizen, in a manner that is absent of due process, especially when the killing is apparently a mistake, as it was in the case of Abdulrahman al-Awlaki. Surely, there’s a way to challenge the inevitable sense of license that attends an administration carrying out killings in secret without revealing intelligence sources and methods.

Of course, the right way to provide “accountability” when the President wants to execute a citizen is for him to have to show evidence to a court that the execution is warranted — at the very least, to obtain an indictment — and have a court provide oversight (exactly the way progressives spent the entire Bush years vehemently demanding be done for mere eavesdropping and detention, let alone assassinations). But the Obama administration vehemently resists any such due process, so at the very least, some sort of post-assassination accountability (did you mean to kill this person? why? what’s the evidence that it was justified?) is vital, for obvious reasons. But, as the defender’s justifications make clear, the administration just as vehemently resists even this woefully inadequate post hoc form of accountability.

The other profferred justification — non-acknowledgment is necessary to preserve our diplomatic deals that let us bomb people in other countries – is a bit more subtle, but even more pernicious. Junod makes the crucial point in response:

The issues we are facing when we consider the implications of the Lethal Presidency have always seemed to me the largest possible. The power that the administration has claimed and strenuously defended — the power to identify and kill the nation’s enemies, from a remove of secrecy — is the power of kings, and it’s one of the powers the elemental principle of due process exists to address.

And so, yes, I have to admit that this one man’s informed explanation sounded trivial. I have to admit that it sounded as if large principles are being sacrificed not only to small nations but also to smaller principles. I have to admit that it sounded antique and arcane, as though the administration had decided to put aside the Constitution because France had decided to revoke the Edict of Nantes.

That point is, by itself, dispositive of the source’s proferred justifications, in my view. But several others are worth making:

First, this defense of total secrecy is intellectually corrupted because it only counts one side of the equation. Specifically, this “non-acknowledgment” argument recognizes the ostensible value that comes from executing the policy in question (namely, executing people whom President Obama decides should be dead), while completely ignoring the costs of the policy. The costs should be clear to any rational person.

Those costs come from vesting in the President what is literally the most extremist power a political ruler can seize, the true hallmark of authortarianism: namely, the power to order even his own citizens executed without a whiff of due process or accountability and in total secrecy — far from any battlefield. One would have to view the threat of Terrorism as some sort of truly existential menace on par with, say, the Civil War — which was the standard neocon myth to justify whatever Bush/Cheney did — in order to view the risks of vesting this secret, unaccountable assassination power in one political official as worthwhile.

When Al Gore delivered his major speech on the Washington Mall in 2006 denouncing the unrestrained Bush/Cheney assault on core American values, he asked: “If the president has the inherent authority to eavesdrop on American citizens without a warrant, imprison American citizens on his own declaration, kidnap and torture, then what can’t he do?” That’s exactly my question here for the far more extreme power claimed by Obama: if you believe the President should have the power to order people, including U.S. citizens, executed with no due process and not even any checks or transparency, what power do you believe he shouldn’t have? It’s impossible to see what answer someone could offer after defending this level of secret power.

Second, this “no-acknowledgment” excuse is tantamount to a license to lie to the citizenry about the most vital of all matters: war. When WikiLeaks released the diplomatic cables relating to Yemen, those cables revealed that Yemen’s then-President, the U.S.-supported Ali Abdullah Saleh, boasted to American diplomats that he would continue to lie publicly about who was perpetrating U.S. air attacks on Yemeni soil (“‘We’ll continue saying the bombs are ours, not yours,’ Saleh said, prompting Deputy Prime Minister Alimi to joke that he had just ‘lied’ by telling Parliament that the bombs in Arhab, Abyan, and Shebwa were American-made but deployed by the [Yemini military]“).

By refusing to inform the nation that it was the U.S. which was actually launching these attacks (“no-acknowledgment”), the Obama administration was enabling these lies to mislead not only Yemenis but also the American citizenry. For instance, as we now know, on December 17, 2009, President Obama ordered an air attack — using Tomahawk cruise missiles and cluster bombs — on the village of al Majala in Yemen’s southern Abyan province; the strike ended the lives of 14 women and 21 children.

At the time, the Yemeni government outright lied about the attack, falsely claiming that it was Yemen’s air force which was responsible. The Pentagon helped bolster this misleading claim of responsibility by issuing a statement that “Yemen should be congratulated for actions against al-Qaeda.” Meanwhile, leading American media outlets, such as The New York Times, reported — falsely — that “Yemeni security forces carried out airstrikes and ground raids against suspected Qaeda hide-outs last week with what American officials described as ‘intelligence and firepower’ supplied by the United States.”

Anyone who defends this “no acknowledgment” justification is defending the right of the President to order military action in foreign countries without the knowledge of the American people, or worse, by allowing them to be actively misled about who is doing the bombing. If one finds that justifiable, then what was wrong with Nixon’s secret bombing of Cambodia and Laos, once so objectionable to American liberals that it formed the basis for the impeachment argument against him?

There are few things more dangerous in a democracy than allowing a President to wage secret wars without the knowledge of the country. I’ll permit Abraham Lincoln — not exactly a pacifistic worshipper of legalisms and restraints on Executive power — to explain why this is so, in an 1848 letter to a proponent of unrestrained presidential warmaking powers:

Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so, whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after you have given him so much as you propose.

If, to-day, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, I see no probability of the British invading us but he will say to you be silent; I see it, if you dont.

The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This, our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood.

Third, this “no-acknowledgment” claim cannot be sustained factually in the case of Obama’s assassination of the American teenager in Yemen, or the killing of numerous Pakistani teeangers. After substantial pressure, Attorney General Eric Holder issued a public defense of the Awlaki assassination in Yemen, and John Brennan did the same for strikes in Pakistan. Obama officials, and the President himself, have repeatedly boasted about them. So the U.S. has already acknowledged launching these attacks. Moreover, everyone now knows — in Yemen and elsewhere — that it’s the U.S. who is killing people en masse by drones, which would trigger the same “sovereignty” demands which this anonymous defender cites as what must be avoided.

So even if you agree with the “no-acknowledgment” rationale in general as an excuse to justify secrecy, it’s inapplicable here. When it comes to presidential assassinations, the only thing this secrecy achieves is to prevent discovery of bad acts and “mistakes,” and more important, to bar accountability for them on the part of Obama officials (we can’t and won’t answer for what we’ve done because it’s all too secret even to acknowledge that we did it). That, manifestly, is the purpose of this secrecy (see Wired, June 15, 2012: ”CIA Refuses to Confirm or Deny Drone Attacks Obama Brags About“).

Fourth, this anonymous Obama defender claims that “State secrecy . . . . exists for a reason, and it’s generally not the reason that the Glenn Greenwalds of the world think it is — it’s not to cover up wrongdoing.” This I find astounding: that someone would actually claim that rampant government secrecy is not designed to conceal wrongdoing.

The most basic truth of political power — and (therefore) the core precept of the American founding — is that power exercised in secret, without checks and accountability, will be inevitably abused: not sometimes or maybe abused, but inevitably, and not only when Bad People are in power, but always, even when it involves someone so deeply and profoundly magnanimous as Barack Obama (“There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty” – John Adams, Journal, 1772; ”In questions of power…let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution” – Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798).
 

ogc163

Superstar
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
9,027
Reputation
2,150
Daps
22,319
Reppin
Bronx, NYC
We know with certainty that top Obama officials such as John Brennan have blatantly lied about killing civilians with drones (along with other key national security matters). We know with certainty that the Obama administration has re-defined “militants” to include any military-age males they kill regardless of whether they were actually doing anything wrong. We know with certainty that the U.S. Government has detained and publicly branded as Terrorists people they knew at the time were innocent. We know with certainty that Pakistani teenagers have been killed by U.S. drones shortly after attending meetings to protest civilian drone deaths. We know with certainty (despite rampant secrecy) that the Obama administration is targeting rescuers of drone victims and funeral attendees who are grieving drone victims with follow-up drone attacks: clear war crimes. And we know with certainty that — despite being hailed for stopping torture and CIA black sites — the Obama administration continues, in secret, to maintain secret black sites, indefinite detention, rendition and even torture by proxy.

Given that record, only a religious-type faith in the Goodness of Barack Obama and his officials, or willful ignorance, or both, would permit someone to believe that this rampant secrecy has nothing to do with an attempt to conceal wrongdoing, ineptitude and even corruption. Even more so, this claim ignores a basic precept: secrecy is and always has been the linchpin of abuse of power. The more extreme the power is (ordering people assassinated), the more likely it is to be abused when exercised in secrecy and with no accountability. That’s precisely the situation that we have allowed the U.S. Government under President Obama to bring about. The two lame, factually challenged excuses offered for this secrecy regime by this unnamed defender actually do more to highlight its dangers than justify it.

National security - Salon.com
 

Spatial Paradox

All Star
Supporter
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
2,297
Reputation
1,130
Daps
12,172
Reppin
Brooklyn
Perhaps no less than any other president in the time of war, but he's certainly setting a hell of a precedent for his successors.
 

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,707
Reputation
555
Daps
22,613
Reppin
Arrakis
I'm not buying the article, it's true that Obama is skirting the edge of morality and constitutionality but it's not clear that he has crossed it

the case for the legality of targeted killings is pretty strong, it's not a weak case, as for the morality, it's along the same lines of the morality of war itself
 

Jello Biafra

A true friend stabs you in the front
Supporter
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
46,184
Reputation
4,923
Daps
120,884
Reppin
Behind You
I'm not buying the article, it's true that Obama is skirting the edge of morality and constitutionality but it's not clear that he has crossed it

the case for the legality of targeted killings is pretty strong, it's not a weak case, as for the morality, it's along the same lines of the morality of war itself

on December 17, 2009, President Obama ordered an air attack — using Tomahawk cruise missiles and cluster bombs — on the village of al Majala in Yemen’s southern Abyan province; the strike ended the lives of 14 women and 21 children

That qualifies as crossing the moral line to me.
 

theworldismine13

God Emperor of SOHH
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
22,707
Reputation
555
Daps
22,613
Reppin
Arrakis
That qualifies as crossing the moral line to me.

like I said its not any different than war in general, I'm disagreeing with the notion that this is NOT a war, if this is a war then what obama is doing is what happens in any war and it is justified, as justifiable as a war can be

if you are starting with the premise that any war is immoral period than you have a valid point, but I can't agree with that premise
 
Top