The Birth of a Nation (Official Thread)

[gluvnast]

i liked most of your post, but I disagree with this completely.

12 Years a Slave did this waaaaay better than Django.

I didn't say Django was the best film overall.... and I agree 12 Years a Slave is one of the best FILMS I personally ever watched. But I was speaking about balance. 12 Years a Slave, intentionally, wanted it to be 100% from the perspective of one man. so everything was viewed ONLY through Solomon's Northtrip's perspective. Django Unchained gave you virtually everything from every aspect, the good, the bad, the ugly, and the nuances of it all and gave the deeper parallels to how it links to how we are today.

But I DO agree that 12 Years a Slave >>> Django by far.

 

[mastermind]

I didn't say Django was the best film overall.... and I agree 12 Years a Slave is one of the best FILMS I personally ever watched. But I was speaking about balance. 12 Years a Slave, intentionally, wanted it to be 100% from the perspective of one man. so everything was viewed ONLY through Solomon's Northtrip's perspective. Django Unchained gave you virtually everything from every aspect, the good, the bad, the ugly, and the nuances of it all and gave the deeper parallels to how it links to how we are today.

But I DO agree that 12 Years a Slave >>> Django by far.

If you saying from different perspectives, that's fair.

But 12 Years captured slavery from every standpoint. Master and his wife. White liberal slave owner. Black women. Black men. Woman who happy being the masters missus. And so forth.

 

[gluvnast]

You keep saying this is the "Same" film as the others but it's not. There is no White Savior that alone changes the whole dynamic of the entire film. You wanted a longer rebellion, so maybe the movie could of been 20 minutes longer, ok I can see that point but budget probably prevented a longer shoot. They didn't have 100 Million like QT to do whatever they want. Most black films don't get the same budgets. Also "Django" length was a problem because then movie dragged and the pacing wasn't good were as "Birth" had great pacing and everything came together in the end. "Django" isn't "balanced" for the reasons I gave. As far as this being no different than "ROOTS" it's not a good comparison, "Roots" is a miniseries that was like over 10 hours of story.

More can be told in that time frame. This is an isolated story, from one particular slave. Look if you like Django, that's cool. I don't even think it's a bad film but it wasn't the 2nd coming and I gave my reason why. Nate made a more complete Slave film that focused on all aspects of our experience and showed us rising up and taking our own freedom. "Django" needed Dr. King to get out of chains. Nat broke the chains himself and freed others along the way. Also Nat Turner was a REAL PERSON not a figment of QT imagination. I tend to like my slave stories be real not imaginary. The only thing I will say is QT did good showing the "Mandigo Fights" because that's a lost history, also Django whipping the slave master was dope. Blowing up the Plantation was good as well and riding off with his women in the end was also strong. Outside of that he dropped the ball by not having Django face off against Candy in the final battle and the overuse of the White Savior complex.

You think just because there was no so-called "white savior" makes it different? Ignoring the fact that it EXPLOITED the horrors of slavery once again and made the capture and killing of Nat Turner feel un-heroic. Like at the last minute, after nearly 2 HOURS of exploitation of evil the white man is, he FINALLY decides to do a half-ass revolt with just a HANDFUL of slaves at the last second and they hit just a few homes overnight and fukked up at one spot because one kid got shooked and snitched. And I wasn't going to address the inaccuracies of this film, but at LEAST showcase the revolt as how it really was as well as how they truly got organized and so forth. Nah, Nate rather show 2 hours worth of exploitative pain and suffering which we LONG BEEN down that road time and time and time again. If I wanted to see how terrible slavery is on the silver screen, I would watch 12 years a Slave again.

Lastly, if you did not understand the POINT of Django not killing Candy then you missed the out over who's the true VILLAIN was in that movie. Not Candy, who actually MADE PAPERS for the release of Broomhilda, but Stephen who was pulling all the strings. It had to be Stephen that he kills and it had to be Schultz who fuccks it up by killing Candy due to his OWN selfish pride which speaks on most white liberals today.

 

[gluvnast]

If you saying from different perspectives, that's fair.

But 12 Years captured slavery from every standpoint. Master and his wife. White liberal slave owner. Black women. Black men. Woman who happy being the masters missus. And so forth.

Yea... I agree with that. Maybe I should of rephrased. Still was pissed that the only revolutionary person was Michael K. Williams character on the ferry and he wanted to organize a revolt then and Solomon was down but the other sellout uncle Tom negated that.

 

[David_TheMan]

You think just because there was no so-called "white savior" makes it different? Ignoring the fact that it EXPLOITED the horrors of slavery once again and made the capture and killing of Nat Turner feel un-heroic. Like at the last minute, after nearly 2 HOURS of exploitation of evil the white man is, he FINALLY decides to do a half-ass revolt with just a HANDFUL of slaves at the last second and they hit just a few homes overnight and fukked up at one spot because one kid got shooked and snitched. And I wasn't going to address the inaccuracies of this film, but at LEAST showcase the revolt as how it really was as well as how they truly got organized and so forth. Nah, Nate rather show 2 hours worth of exploitative pain and suffering which we LONG BEEN down that road time and time and time again. If I wanted to see how terrible slavery is on the silver screen, I would watch 12 years a Slave again.

Lastly, if you did not understand the POINT of Django not killing Candy then you missed the out over who's the true VILLAIN was in that movie. Not Candy actually MADE PAPERS for the release of Broomhilda, but Stephen who was pulling all the strings. It had to be Stephen that he kills and it had to be Schultz who fuccks it up by killing Candy due to his OWN selfish pride which speaks on most white liberals today.

I think in Django you misinterpret Schultz's actions as being selfish pride, and not an outsiders look and mental breaking of the inhumanity of slavery compared to those like Django, Stephen, and Candy who grew up in the system and have lost the view of it outside of it being the norm.

I think one of the most disgusting things about Django and why I've never watched it since the first viewing is how it actually tries to make a black man the true evil sting puller regarding slavery. That is one of the most disgusting "twists" I've ever seen in a movie and I can't let shyt like that pass. Even down to the bullshyt blacks being freed and staying in their cages bullshyt

 

[gluvnast]

I think in Django you misinterpret Schultz's actions as being selfish pride, and not an outsiders look and mental breaking of the inhumanity of slavery compared to those like Django, Stephen, and Candy who grew up in the system and have lost the view of it outside of it being the norm.

I think one of the most disgusting things about Django and why I've never watched it since the first viewing is how it actually tries to make a black man the true evil sting puller regarding slavery. That is one of the most disgusting "twists" I've ever seen in a movie and I can't let shyt like that pass. Even down to the bullshyt blacks being freed and staying in their cages bullshyt

Schultz entered blind into comparing slavery with bounty hunting not truly understanding due to the fact of him being a foreigner and not really been exposed to slavery in its true horrific reality. It only served as a catalyst to why he killed Candy. He was outsmarted and embarrassed by someone who was a blatant racist and that pride was stomped because he was usually the one that outsmarts everyone. This time around HE was outsmarted. He could not LET THAT GO. There was NO REASON to kill Candy when the entire POINT of going there was to free Broomhilda which they exactly DID at the exact PRICE that they offered. Candy couldn't let his pride be pushed aside over the bigger picture and jeopardized EVERYTHING. Which is another point as well, Schultz HAD to die so Django can be the ONLY HERO in the end killing everyone....

 

[David_TheMan]

Schultz entered blind into comparing slavery with bounty hunting not truly understanding due to the fact of him being a foreigner and not really been exposed to slavery in its true horrific reality. It only served as a catalyst to why he killed Candy. He was outsmarted and embarrassed by someone who was a blatant racist and that pride was stomped because he was usually the one that outsmarts everyone. This time around HE was outsmarted. He could not LET THAT GO. There was NO REASON to kill Candy when the entire POINT of going there was to free Broomhilda which they exactly DID at the exact PRICE that they offered. Candy couldn't let his pride be pushed aside over the bigger picture and jeopardized EVERYTHING. Which is another point as well, Schultz HAD to die so Django can be the ONLY HERO in the end killing everyone....

Yeah I just don't see the angle you are trying to push actually presented in the movie.
It seems clear to me that the only thing that got Schultz was the depravity of the institution, he just wasnt not ready for it and lost it in complete disgust with a man like Candy, not his own ego. The move clearly supports that angle. So we'll just have to agree to disagree with our takes on that.

Schultz's death was a plot neccessity to have the heroic 3rd act by Django, if he didn't the movie would have been over

 

[gluvnast]

I think one of the most disgusting things about Django and why I've never watched it since the first viewing is how it actually tries to make a black man the true evil sting puller regarding slavery. That is one of the most disgusting "twists" I've ever seen in a movie and I can't let shyt like that pass. Even down to the bullshyt blacks being freed and staying in their cages bullshyt

You frustrated over that, but that is the most TRUTHFUL aspect of it all which is why I stated it is the most balanced. Stop and THINK who it always be that always stops a black revolutionary from achieving liberation of a people over an oppressed state. It is ALWAYS a black sellout that refuses to have that happen. ALWAYS. It's always be some black snitch, mole, sabotager, agent, someone of our own skin that prevents US to be truly free and independent. The slaves in the cages remaining in there cages is even MORE profound because most of our people TODAY are still in some kind of MENTAL ENSLAVEMENT. You don't REALIZE how much truth and jewels that was dropped in that film. You disgusted by it, but LOOK AROUND YOU and ask yourself why we still in the positions that we are today when we could of LONG revolted and got out of it?

 

[R.E.N. Spells Ren]

The rebellion should've been longer. Both the rebellion and the build up. The final Act felt rushed. That's a legit criticism.

Complaints about the gore of the white folk deaths vs that against black folks is BS

 

[gluvnast]

Yeah I just don't see the angle you are trying to push actually presented in the movie.
It seems clear to me that the only thing that got Schultz was the depravity of the institution, he just wasnt not ready for it and lost it in complete disgust with a man like Candy, not his own ego. The move clearly supports that angle. So we'll just have to agree to disagree with our takes on that.

Schultz's death was a plot neccessity to have the heroic 3rd act by Django, if he didn't the movie would have been over

I agree and stated that the 3rd act was necessary for Django to be the SOLE HERO. But, again... there was ZERO REASON to kill Candy when they got what they came for. It was because Candy outsmarted Schultz and everything that Schultz witnessed gave him absolute disgust about Candy and it was insult to injury that he was OUTSMARTED. That is selfish pride. Regardless of being outsmarted, they were able to free Broomhilda...

 

[David_TheMan]

You frustrated over that, but that is the most TRUTHFUL aspect of it all which is why I stated it is the most balanced. Stop and THINK who it always be that always stops a black revolutionary from achieving liberation of a people over an oppressed state. It is ALWAYS a black sellout that refuses to have that happen. ALWAYS. It's always be some black snitch, mole, sabotager, agent, someone of our own skin that prevents US to be truly free and independent. The slaves in the cages remaining in there cages is even MORE profound because most of our people TODAY are still in some kind of MENTAL ENSLAVEMENT. You don't REALIZE how much truth and jewels that was dropped in that film. You disgusted by it, but LOOK AROUND YOU and ask yourself why we still in the positions that we are today when we could of LONG revolted and got out of it?

I'm frustrated by infantilization of black men that this movie propagates. In real life if slaves saw their capturers killed on the way to market and one ran away, they are all going to run away, not just sit there, because they are fukking human beings who are capable of using their mind and determining what they can do to live and suvive and achieve their own interests.

There is nothing profound about the underhanded portrayals of blacks under the guise of "speaking" truth, especially a decision like this to portray men has having intellect barely the level of a child.

Another sad think is how people like yourself overlook it or even try to champion such a negative unrealistic portrayal of black men.

 

[David_TheMan]

I agree and stated that the 3rd act was necessary for Django to be the SOLE HERO. But, again... there was ZERO REASON to kill Candy when they got what they came for. It was because Candy outsmarted Schultz and everything that Schultz witnessed gave him absolute disgust about Candy and it was insult to injury that he was OUTSMARTED. That is selfish pride. Regardless of being outsmarted, they were able to free Broomhilda...

Man there is nothing to treally discuss bro, you feel one way, I feel another in terms of analysis of the story. Well have to agree to disagree.

 

[MostReal]

Just wanted to say, this film not having a white savior changes the feel of the film totally.

A black man leading is very charismatic and powerful. This is why the film is scary, not because of the revolt imo

 

[gluvnast]

Just wanted to say, this film not having a white savior changes the feel of the film totally.

A black man leading is very charismatic and powerful. This is why the film is scary, not because of the revolt imo

If you think a white savior makes it different then so be it. I want a black revolutionary over anything.... and they downplayed that. That's what SHOULD of made the film scary. Not some passive-aggressive Uncle Tom who only and FINALLY after all the other bullshyt he witnessed decided to revolt is when his OWN ASS got hit with the whip.... I'm not feeling that. I personally wanted a REVOLUTION of men, women and children UNITED going at the oppressor. That wasn't represented. I gives a fucck less white savior or not.

 

[MostReal]

If you think a white savior makes it different then so be it. I want a black revolutionary over anything.... and they downplayed that. That's what SHOULD of made the film scary. Not some passive-aggressive Uncle Tom who only and FINALLY after all the other bullshyt he witnessed decided to revolt is when his OWN ASS got hit with the whip.... I'm not feeling that. I personally wanted a REVOLUTION of men, women and children UNITED going at the oppressor. That wasn't represented. I gives a fucck less white savior or not.

I get what you saying, most definitely should have spent more time on the revolt. What they showed of it felt fleeting.
You being a little extra with everything else though. Film was solid and would've been better with more time on the revolt