Diondon
Thanks to the lawyers uh, I marbled the foyer
Artis Gilmore 
SLAM Magazine's Top 50 from 1997
- Thread starter YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy
- Start date
murksiderock
Superstar
Just to add a little perspective, none of the five guys ahead of him played longer than 15 years. Heres what Kareem's awards would look like if he retired at 15 years (1984), stacked up to the 5 guys in front of him (since it's a hypothetical we'll go ahead and assume Magic never wins without him):
Chips
11 Bill
6 Mike
3 Cap, Bird
2 Magic, Wilt
MVPs
6 Cap
5 Mike, Bill
4 Wilt
3 Bird, Magic
FMVP
6 Mike
2 Magic, Bird
1 Cap, Wilt
*award unavailable during Wilt and Bill's prime
ALL-NBA (1st Teams)
Cap 13 (9)
Mike 11 (10)
Bill 11 (3)
Bird/Magic 10 (9)
Wilt 10 (7)
All-D (1st Teams)
Cap 10 (5)
Mike 9 (9)
Bird 3
Wilt 2
*award unavailable during Wilt and Bill's primes
DPOY
Mike 1
*not available most of Cap's career nor Wilt and Bill
Just an illustration here, with 5-7 more years under his belt than all these guys, the accumulated extra titles and awards didn't earn him consensus GOAT or even Rushmore stature amongst his age group, take away the extra padded accolades, doesn't look any better. Still looks like a guy who "dominated" regular seasons in the All-Time weakest era. Still looks like a stat padding, regular season warrior. I'm gonna need some help on this one...
Chips
11 Bill
6 Mike
3 Cap, Bird
2 Magic, Wilt
MVPs
6 Cap
5 Mike, Bill
4 Wilt
3 Bird, Magic
FMVP
6 Mike
2 Magic, Bird
1 Cap, Wilt
*award unavailable during Wilt and Bill's prime
ALL-NBA (1st Teams)
Cap 13 (9)
Mike 11 (10)
Bill 11 (3)
Bird/Magic 10 (9)
Wilt 10 (7)
All-D (1st Teams)
Cap 10 (5)
Mike 9 (9)
Bird 3
Wilt 2
*award unavailable during Wilt and Bill's primes
DPOY
Mike 1
*not available most of Cap's career nor Wilt and Bill
Just an illustration here, with 5-7 more years under his belt than all these guys, the accumulated extra titles and awards didn't earn him consensus GOAT or even Rushmore stature amongst his age group, take away the extra padded accolades, doesn't look any better. Still looks like a guy who "dominated" regular seasons in the All-Time weakest era. Still looks like a stat padding, regular season warrior. I'm gonna need some help on this one...
murksiderock
Superstar
Artis Gilmore
Fair point, to clarify I was naming guys who get thrown in Top 50 conversation with regularity. Lanier wasn't even thought of as Top 50 back then according to this list...
Gilmore (barely) and Thurmond were, so this is a fair point to make. But for a guy who supposedly was overwhelmingly dominant, who was the challenger to his position that was blocking him from greater achievement? How are we justifying arguably the GOAT missing the playoffs multiple times in his prime? Where was the dynasty that prevented other GOATs (LeBron, Wilt, Logo, hell throw O in there if you want) from adding more titles?
That league was wide the fukk open for him to assert his dominance, no All-Time teams from that era, and supposedly arguably the greatest player ever was consistently "leading" his team to marginal success?
We'd kill somebody like that today---->oh wait a minute, we already do this Harden...
CROM
Pray. I will not listen, but I will laugh at you
He did assert his dominance in that era. Milwaukee was one of the best teams in the league his entire time there, and was without debate the best player in the game. Won a ring there. Came to L.A., where he really had nothing to work with initially, but Gail Goodridge and was still the most dominant player in the league. Even when Dr. J and company came to the NBA after the merger, he was still the most dominant center in the game. I think it's dismissive to suggest that his competition was weak. Some say the Bill Russell era was weak, but no one questions his greatness. You play who's in front of you. Kareem had already been in the league 9 or 10 years when Moses came into form....and MO GAVE EVERYBODY PROBLEMS. Not just Kareem. You make good points, but I wouldn't be so quick to call his achievements "padded".
murksiderock
Superstar
Fair...
So if we're judging everyone equally, how is does he have a case over Wilt, who was the most dominant player of his day and impeded by a dynasty?
What's his case over Bird, who raised the bar for wing dominance and was the #1 on all his championship teams?
What about Magic, who became the Lakers' best player in 1981-82 by all accounts of people who watched them, and all metrics, four of their five titles together Cap was the inferior player of the two?
Bill anchored a dynasty, what is his case over him?
Mike came along and wasn't missing the playoffs and was up against a dynasty?
I get you bruh, fair points. I should clarify I'm not saying he wasn't dominant, but that his dominance didn't translate to high level winning. Maybe the characterization of weak competition isn't entirely fair, but the 70s is widely considered the weakest era ever, parity all over the place, and he had a losing record in the conference finals...
I just wanna make sure we're grading all these players the same, even though I know the criteria shifts from player to player, which is my underlying point about how subjective these things are. Kareem is the only guy able to get away with consistent shortcomings in the playoffs and missing them entirely, of any player that is debatably GOAT...
There's no clear logic as to how he could dominate a to the degree he did, and yet Dave Cowens (who is probably still Top 50-60 at this point) won more titles. The holes in Kareem's resume are minimized to poke holes in others, and he clearly isn't being held to the same standards by OUR era----->but seemingly back when more people his age were publicly having these conversations, they were considering something that isn't being considered today...
Be interesting to know exactly what they were weighing him on, though it seems clear that when more people were around who saw him, apparently had a deeper analysis on him than what all of us youngins are giving him today. He was dominant, don't mean to undermine that, but I can't imagine of these other candidates playing in a parity filled League coming out at the end of it with Cap's results, and being forgiven for them...
ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
I told y'all in another thread before Mike the consensus G.O.A.T. was Bill Russell not Kareem...
I also told y'all in another thread that Walt Frazier is criminally underrated on these All-Time lists and point guard rankings in modern day. They ranked him as 20th All-Time and he's ahead of Isiah Thomas and Stockton who are usually ranked ahead of him. He didn't have as much longevity as them but he was one of the first larger than life basketball stars and the first with a signature shoe line. He was a 7x All-NBA First Team defender, he was a big efficient 6'4 point guard and he played on teams that emphasized teamwork and ball movement, he won two titles and had one of the best game 7 performances ever with 36/19/7 and 6 steals.
Just like it says in his lil write up dude made minimal mistakes on offense or defense, high I.Q., always calm cool collected confident on the court, never ever had a technical foul.
I also told y'all in another thread that Walt Frazier is criminally underrated on these All-Time lists and point guard rankings in modern day. They ranked him as 20th All-Time and he's ahead of Isiah Thomas and Stockton who are usually ranked ahead of him. He didn't have as much longevity as them but he was one of the first larger than life basketball stars and the first with a signature shoe line. He was a 7x All-NBA First Team defender, he was a big efficient 6'4 point guard and he played on teams that emphasized teamwork and ball movement, he won two titles and had one of the best game 7 performances ever with 36/19/7 and 6 steals.
Just like it says in his lil write up dude made minimal mistakes on offense or defense, high I.Q., always calm cool collected confident on the court, never ever had a technical foul.
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ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
Larry def had series with Cedric Maxwell and Kevin McHale outscoring him
murksiderock
Superstar
Larry def had series with Cedric Maxwell and Kevin McHale outscoring him
True dat, but Larry was the catalyst of a 3x team. Kareem as the lone, primary driver took his team to TWO Finals in a wide open era...
An argument could be made that Bird was the better elevator of talent and a stronger lead dog than Kareem...
YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy
Superstar
There was actually a pretty long interview with Cap in this issue called "Profile in Courage". It's funny cause they asked him who he thought was the greatest and he said, "Oscar Robertson. Maybe Michael Jordan. Those two without a question". Now if someone says Michael Jordan is the GOAT, Cap is writing an open letter shytting on you and everything you believe in.
@YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy you got the Slam issue with the big write up on Dominque Wilkins?
YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy
Superstar
That doesn't ring a bell. Was he on the cover?
YoungMoneyCashMoneyBoy
Superstar
SLAM: Of all the records you hold, which do you consider your greatest achievement?
Cap: My playoff record of points scored (5,762). That is one I think will stand for a long time
Mike broke it the next year
Cap: My playoff record of points scored (5,762). That is one I think will stand for a long time
Mike broke it the next year