Should Batman kill the Joker?

acri1

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...let's discuss one of the greatest philosophical debates in comic books.

On one hand, Batman's one rule is that he doesn't kill people, no matter what. He feels that it's not his job to be judge/jury/executioner, and he feels that if he makes an exception to his rule, he'll just end up killing more criminals and eventually be no better than them. Sliding down the slippery slope, as it were. Plus, if he killed somebody (even the Joker) Gotham PD would probably be on his back even more.

But on the other hand, the Joker is responsible thousands of thousands of people being killed, hurt, and tortured, including people close to him. This guy killed one of the Robins (sort of) and crippled Batgirl. He has no regrets about it and Arkham seems to be unable to keep him in jail permanently. Nor does Gotham seem to be willing to kill him. So it's probably reasonable to say that, as long as the Joker continues to live, he'll continue to kill/maim/torture people for fun.

So, assuming that Gotham is unable/unwilling to keep the Joker locked up or execute him...do you think Batman would be justified if he decided to just get rid of the Joker? Why or why not?
 

acri1

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Why Batman Should Kill The Joker | Against the New Taboo | Big Think

Why Batman Should Kill The Joker
by TAURIQ MOOSA
FEBRUARY 23, 2012, 4:35 PM
Cropped%20Joker%20bottom.jpg


Batman is wrong to be nonlethal in the case of the Joker. This shows we can, in some cases, morally kill someone against his will.

I am something of a comic fan. The medium fascinates me - though not so much most of the superhero characters and stories. I am currently writing comics myself (whether they see the light of day is another question and, no, I can't draw to save a bus of orphans). However, since I am trying to be a comics creator, I'm usually interrogating comics and characters when I encounter them. Thus, I've recently become unconvinced by my favourite crime-fighter's attitude toward killing. And, specifically, killing his archenemy - who is, in fact, my favourite character in comics.

Batman and The Joker's "relationship" was best explained by Heath Ledger’s incredible portrayal of the latter, when he said in The Dark Knight:

“This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You truly are incorruptible, aren't you? You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won't kill you because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever.”

The Joker provides us with two reasons two fierce enemies are refusing to end the life of the other. Batman is renowned not merely for his genius and being a non-superpowered superhero but also for his iron-clad principles. Principles that withstand the temptation to kill his enemies, as well as resist the lures of Gotham’s sirens (in most instances, at least). The Joker appears to be the opposite: chaotic and so loose with his principles one can almost see them dragging on the floor.

But, it seems, the two are in fact not so different. Many instances of The Joker lead readers to believe he, too, is a genius – anyone who can often stay ahead of the World’s Greatest Detective surely must be. The Joker’s ironclad principle is simply being a force of chaos and destruction. Indeed, we shouldn’t confuse the result of the principle with how the principle is held: a Rachmaninov piano solo appears chaotic, but no one disputes it requires discipline and determination to master. So it shouldn’t surprise us that neither The Joker nor Batman will kill the other.

Yet, Batman is surely mistaken in maintaining his principle of non-lethal conduct. Surely there are some good reasons, like preventing The Joker’s future crimes, where killing (against a person's will) can be a moral imperative?

I do not support the death penalty, for reasons my fellow Big Think blogger, the incredible Will Wilkinson, has already highlighted beautifully. And for this, I may appear hypocritical. Yet, my reasons against State-mandated killing are premised on the idea that there is no evidence to justify its existence: capital punishment doesn’t appear to lower or deter future crime (most murders, for example, are “crimes of passion”, which are spur of the moment reactions to sudden, unfortunate situations, not planned events in which the suspect can consider the threat of execution).

But The Joker is a clear example of “an unstoppable” force that can be seen to harm. The Joker proves time and again his disregard for law, any semblance of respect for other lives, and his consistent need to create chaos in a methodical way. No prison can hold him, no punishment will effect him, no treatment will cure him. All have been tried, all quiver into dust or, like Harley Quinn, are transformed into another tool for his plans.

A guaranteed way to prevent any more of these horrible crimes is to end the life that creates them. This is a choice to kill, to severe forever the final thread of life, to close the final door to any problems caused by and to the entity in question; certain States in the US take this view for heinous crimes, such as a murder, for convicted perpetrators. On the other side of the coin (and world), there are recognised clinics who do kill their patients at the patient’s request. As I’ve said before, “killing” is a neutral term as is evidenced in these two polar opposite instances.

So the question then is the following: Is it ethical to kill The Joker?

I think yes. Firstly, merely, say, debilitating him in some way is not helpful. What’s powerful is not The Joker’s physical presence but what he can create and conjure. For example, in The Killing Joke by Alan Moore and Brian Bolland, The Joker attempts to drive Commissioner Gordon insane – The Joker wants to show that anyone, given the right circumstances, could end up as he did. The Joker himself does not need to be there for this to occur. Gordon for most of the story is simply strapped to a ride, in an abandoned amusement park. Even if he was locked up or crippled, there is little doubt The Joker’s powerful mind could still pull on threads that run like veins throughout Gotham’s criminal underworld. The Joker after all is the decayed beating heart of crime.

Or in A Death in the Family, The Joker blackmails the biological mother of Jason Todd (the second Robin) to hand the boy over to him. The Joker proceeds to kill him. However, the blackmail and death need not have been performed by The Joker himself. The Joker’s access to and acquisition of information is what made him successful.

Secondly, Batman could make it such that The Joker’s death appears to be an accident. This means The Dark Knight can retain his image as a nonlethal superhero, but still have the chaotic force of The Joker forever gone.

It appears that Batman’s nonlethal attitude to The Joker is partially responsible for the continual death and suffering of many innocents. This is so because we all know that Arkham Asylum - the revolving door of Gotham's criminals - can’t hold The Joker. And, as I said, debilitating him doesn’t work and there is no cure for his chaos and insanity.

Indeed, a regular accusation is that Batman “created” some of these criminals. In Batman: The Animated TV Series episode “Trial” (Episode #68), Batman is put on trial in Arkham Asylum where his rogues’ gallery make this very accusation (however, in the end, they find him “not guilty” – indeed, they claim they “invented” Batman.) Whether or not he is responsible for their life of crime, there’s little doubt that he fails morally when given the opportunity to end The Joker. He fails because what appears to matter more to Batman is his maintenance of a nonlethal approach, even to the point of Gotham continually suffering.

But what use is holding so tightly to such a principle, when maintaining it only decays your reason for having it? Like a rose whose petals have fallen off, Batman’s principle that guides his crimefighting was perhaps worth holding but now simply scars him. If what matters to Batman is truly preventing crime – as opposed to only fighting it – then he surely ought to kill The Joker.


Pretty compelling argument. :patrice:
 

Heelmatic

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Kill one guy to save thousands and thousands of innocent lives.....seems simple enough to me
 

Spree At Last

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yall read the killing joke? ambiguous ending but one interpretation is that he killed the joker, peep the final page:
killing-joke-ending-570x891.jpg


this is prob my fave batman comic along with arkham asylum, to me in the end batman finally snaps and breaks the joker's neck, there's even the metaphorical line in the rain that goes away in the last panel, which could mean that batman finally crossed that line and killed him. and deservedly so, joker pulled so much fukked up shyt in this book :wow:
 

acri1

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What kills me about it is if someone said fukk it and went Joker Hunting, Batman would find out some way and stop it.

Stuff like this is what makes me feel like Joker would last all of a month in Marvel, and would prolly be regulated to being a C-List villain.

Yeah, let Joker try to pull some of his BS on Wolverine... :wow:
 

Cuban Pete

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Pretty much. Frank Castle in particular would be :demonic: if he heard the Joker was in town.

yea Im more of a DC person but the Joker would have more pressure in Marvel cuz theres heroes that dgaf and rival villains on a whole other level.... I think he's be around longer than a month tho, easily got more connects than Kingpin to get shyt done in the underworld and more willing to get his hands dirty, he thinks outside the box 2

as for the thread, yea Bats needs to smoke his ass no questions asked:

The Joker arguably has the largest single body count of any villain in the DCU. Cheshire, Mongul, Black Adam, and the Secret Society of Super Villains have all devastated entire cities, but the Joker probably has killed the most people in single acts. Part of Joker's high murder rate is because he is largely indiscriminate in how he kills, ranging from the traditional, such as knives, guns, and explosives, to his signature Joker venom and electric buzzer. This list excludes the Emperor Joker storyline, though it's worth mentioning that in that storyline, the Joker not only murdered Batman dozens of times over, but also destroyed first the entire planet, and then nearly the cosmos (luckily, it was all undone).
 
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