reasons that capitalism is better than socialism...

Blackking

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How true are these statements? :lupe:

1) Socialism benefits the few at the expense of the many:
Socialism is superior to capitalism in one primary way: It offers more security. It's almost like an extremely expensive insurance policy that dramatically cuts into your quality of life, but insures that if worse comes to worse, you won't drop below a very minimal lifestyle. For the vast majority of people, this would be a terrible deal. On the other hand, if you're lazy, completely incompetent or alternately, just have a streak of very bad luck, the meager benefits provided by socialism may be very appealing. So a socialist society forces the many to suffer in order to make it easier for the few. It's just as Winston Churchill once noted, "The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

2) Capitalism encourages entrepreneurship while socialism discourages it: A government in a capitalist economy can quite easily give everyone equality of opportunity with a few basic laws and regulations, but socialism strives to create equality of results. This should frighten people who value their freedom because ultimately, as F.A. Hayek has noted, "A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers." You can see this happening in America as our efforts to reduce "inequality" have led to an ever expanding government and a vast regulatory tangle that is almost unexplainable despite the fact that it is certainly enforceable. Capitalism encourages people to start a business and build a better life for themselves while socialism lays in wait with IRS agents, nooses made of red tape and meddling bureaucrats looking for businesses to control and loot.

3) Capitalism leads to innovation: Coming up with new products is often time consuming, expensive and hit or miss. Nine ideas may fail before that tenth one takes off. The less the creative people behind these ideas are allowed to benefit, the less time, money and effort they'll put into developing new concepts and inventions. Put another way, the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward has to be to convince people to take it. Capitalism offers big rewards for productive people while socialism offers makers only a parade of bureaucratic leeches who want to take advantage of their "good fortune."

4) Capitalism produces more economic growth: Capitalism produces considerably more economic growth than socialism and as John Kennedy said, "A rising tide lifts all boats." A fast growing economy produces more jobs, more wealth and helps everyone. Many people assume that capitalism isn't working if there are still poor people, but that misses the point. In many parts of the world, poverty means living in a hut with a dirt floor while in America, most poor Americans have TVs, refrigerators and cell phones. The rich may take home a larger share of the pie in capitalism, but the poor also benefit tremendously from living in a growing, thriving economy.

5) Socialism is too slow to adapt: Capitalism is extremely good at allocating capital to where it's most valued. It has to be. Either you give people what they are willing to pay for or someone else will. On the other hand, socialism is slow and stupid for a variety of reasons. Because the government is spending someone else's money, it doesn’t get particularly concerned about losing money. Political concerns about appearances often trump the effectiveness of a program. Moreover, even if politicians and bureaucrats are intelligent and competent, which are big "ifs," they're simply not going to have the specific knowledge needed to make decisions that may impact thousands of different industries. This is why capitalism may have its share of troubles, but when there are really colossal economic screw-ups, you'll always find the government neck deep in the whole mess.

6) Socialism is inherently wasteful: Milton Friedman once said, "Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own. Nobody uses somebody else’s resources as carefully as he uses his own." This is very true and it means that the more capital that is taken out of the economy and distributed, the more of it that will be wasted. The market does a considerably better job of allocating resources than the government because there are harsh penalties for failure. A company that makes products no one wants will go out of business. A poorly performing government program that wastes a hundred times more money will probably receive a bigger budget the next year.

7) Capitalism works in concert with human nature while socialism works against it: Ayn Rand said it well, "America’s abundance was created not by public sacrifices to ‘the common good,’ but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America’s industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance—and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way," but Adam Smith said it better, “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” A man will work much harder to take care of himself, his family and his friends than he will to make money for the state, which will then waste most of it before redistributing it to people who aren't working as hard as the man who earned it in the first place.
 

The Real

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How true are these statements? :lupe:

1) Socialism benefits the few at the expense of the many:
Socialism is superior to capitalism in one primary way: It offers more security. It's almost like an extremely expensive insurance policy that dramatically cuts into your quality of life, but insures that if worse comes to worse, you won't drop below a very minimal lifestyle. For the vast majority of people, this would be a terrible deal. On the other hand, if you're lazy, completely incompetent or alternately, just have a streak of very bad luck, the meager benefits provided by socialism may be very appealing. So a socialist society forces the many to suffer in order to make it easier for the few. It's just as Winston Churchill once noted, "The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

2) Capitalism encourages entrepreneurship while socialism discourages it: A government in a capitalist economy can quite easily give everyone equality of opportunity with a few basic laws and regulations, but socialism strives to create equality of results. This should frighten people who value their freedom because ultimately, as F.A. Hayek has noted, "A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers." You can see this happening in America as our efforts to reduce "inequality" have led to an ever expanding government and a vast regulatory tangle that is almost unexplainable despite the fact that it is certainly enforceable. Capitalism encourages people to start a business and build a better life for themselves while socialism lays in wait with IRS agents, nooses made of red tape and meddling bureaucrats looking for businesses to control and loot.

3) Capitalism leads to innovation: Coming up with new products is often time consuming, expensive and hit or miss. Nine ideas may fail before that tenth one takes off. The less the creative people behind these ideas are allowed to benefit, the less time, money and effort they'll put into developing new concepts and inventions. Put another way, the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward has to be to convince people to take it. Capitalism offers big rewards for productive people while socialism offers makers only a parade of bureaucratic leeches who want to take advantage of their "good fortune."

4) Capitalism produces more economic growth: Capitalism produces considerably more economic growth than socialism and as John Kennedy said, "A rising tide lifts all boats." A fast growing economy produces more jobs, more wealth and helps everyone. Many people assume that capitalism isn't working if there are still poor people, but that misses the point. In many parts of the world, poverty means living in a hut with a dirt floor while in America, most poor Americans have TVs, refrigerators and cell phones. The rich may take home a larger share of the pie in capitalism, but the poor also benefit tremendously from living in a growing, thriving economy.

5) Socialism is too slow to adapt: Capitalism is extremely good at allocating capital to where it's most valued. It has to be. Either you give people what they are willing to pay for or someone else will. On the other hand, socialism is slow and stupid for a variety of reasons. Because the government is spending someone else's money, it doesn’t get particularly concerned about losing money. Political concerns about appearances often trump the effectiveness of a program. Moreover, even if politicians and bureaucrats are intelligent and competent, which are big "ifs," they're simply not going to have the specific knowledge needed to make decisions that may impact thousands of different industries. This is why capitalism may have its share of troubles, but when there are really colossal economic screw-ups, you'll always find the government neck deep in the whole mess.

6) Socialism is inherently wasteful: Milton Friedman once said, "Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own. Nobody uses somebody else’s resources as carefully as he uses his own." This is very true and it means that the more capital that is taken out of the economy and distributed, the more of it that will be wasted. The market does a considerably better job of allocating resources than the government because there are harsh penalties for failure. A company that makes products no one wants will go out of business. A poorly performing government program that wastes a hundred times more money will probably receive a bigger budget the next year.

7) Capitalism works in concert with human nature while socialism works against it: Ayn Rand said it well, "America’s abundance was created not by public sacrifices to ‘the common good,’ but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America’s industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance—and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way," but Adam Smith said it better, “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” A man will work much harder to take care of himself, his family and his friends than he will to make money for the state, which will then waste most of it before redistributing it to people who aren't working as hard as the man who earned it in the first place.


This list is filled with straw men and false binaries. Just look at number 1, for example. Capitalism produces and is producing more economic inequality (in terms of how far below the richest the poorest are) than any system previously known to human beings. Or look at number 2, which uses the straw man of "equality of material possession," which not even Karl Marx himself proposed. Or look at number 7, which is blatantly false and provides no proof whatsoever on top of that. Humans are capable of competition AND cooperation, and if not, we never would have made it this far. Altruism objectively exists, as does community interest. Whether or not it altruism and community interest ultimately serves self-interest or not is actually irrelevant to the debate between capitalism and socialism, since whether it's true or not, the question is which system ultimately serves those interests more, and that question isn't answered simply by saying "capitalism is more individualist" or "socialism is more communitarian." I'd have a better standard of living in Social-Democratic Sweden than in capitalist USA- even if all I cared about was my own interests, the Social-Democratic system would serve those interests better.

I don't have time to go down the whole list, but most of this is very easy to refute. There are only a few good arguments in here, namely 5 and potentially 4 and 6, if they are framed properly, which I doubt in this case.
 

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@The Real

#7 is "
blatantly false"?:what: Could you explain? Not that i think Adam Smith or Ayn Rand unquestionable, but it seems like its completely accurate.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” -Adam Smith

You think these services are provided because people care about the next man?



As for #1 you simply dont recognize the difference between capitalism and corporatism...Corporatism being a function of government intervention in the function of capitalism. I've heard the argument that capitalism leads to corporatism, and thats a reasonable(but false) conclusion. This they are the one in the same idea you insinuated is just silly though.
 

The Real

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@The Real

#7 is "
blatantly false"?:what: Could you explain? Not that i think Adam Smith or Ayn Rand unquestionable, but it seems like its completely accurate.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” -Adam Smith
You think these services are provided because people care about the next man?


As for #1 you simply dont recognize the difference between capitalism and corporatism...Corporatism being a function of government intervention in the function of capitalism. I've heard the argument that capitalism leads to corporatism, and thats a reasonable(but false) conclusion. This they are the one in the same idea you insinuated is just silly though.

On number 7: first of all, it's a blatantly unfalsifiable assertion, because "self-interest" is an incredibly vague term. Is it a conscious self-interest? That can't be true, because people do stuff without consciously thinking of themselves all the time (for example, a mother putting herself in harm's way to defend a child, or that cop in Iraq a few days ago who sacrificed himself to save those Shiite pilgrims from a Sunni suicide bomber by jumping on the bomb.) Is it unconscious and/or deeply instinctual? In that case, it can't be falsified, whether it relates to individual self-preservation or it relates to the preservation of your genetic line, as in the case of the mother sacrificing herself for her child. That's why I said it was irrelevant to politics and without proof. What is actually relevant is what you think an ideal life is and what kind of society best provides that option for you.

As for number 1, yes, I believe that capitalism leads to corporatism, since historically, that's been the case since capitalism's early days in Venice, but that aside, the point is that economic inequality is increasing, not decreasing, even if the average quality of life has improved in the last few hundred years. It's the way capitalism works. Efficiency in a market can be achieved with wild extremes of economic disparity.
 

Julius Skrrvin

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This list is filled with straw men and false binaries. Just look at number 1, for example. Capitalism produces and is producing more economic inequality (in terms of how far below the richest the poorest are) than any system previously known to human beings. Or look at number 2, which uses the straw man of "equality of material possession," which not even Karl Marx himself proposed. Or look at number 7, which is blatantly false and provides no proof whatsoever on top of that. Humans are capable of competition AND cooperation, and if not, we never would have made it this far. Altruism objectively exists, as does community interest. Whether or not it altruism and community interest ultimately serves self-interest or not is actually irrelevant to the debate between capitalism and socialism, since whether it's true or not, the question is which system ultimately serves those interests more, and that question isn't answered simply by saying "capitalism is more individualist" or "socialism is more communitarian." I'd have a better standard of living in Social-Democratic Sweden than in capitalist USA- even if all I cared about was my own interests, the Social-Democratic system would serve those interests better.

I don't have time to go down the whole list, but most of this is very easy to refute. There are only a few good arguments in here, namely 5 and potentially 4 and 6, if they are framed properly, which I doubt in this case.

you think capitalism creates more inequality than say, Feudalism for example?
 

The Real

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you think capitalism creates more inequality than say, Feudalism for example?

Yes, but only in the long term, capitalism generates wealth in a way that feudalism could not, and only in the sense of economic inequality, specifically thought in terms of how rich the richest is vs how poor the poorest is (as opposed to general inequality associated with economic immobility, sovereign rights, etc.) John D. Rockefeller was probably the wealthiest person in history (going by real wealth,) and this was while the poorest people in the depression were living in squalor not unlike feudal beggars (though with better social services, at least in some areas.)

In the short term, capitalism significantly reduced economic inequality, and also significantly improved the average quality of life for the working person.
 

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How true are these statements? :lupe:

1) Socialism benefits the few at the expense of the many:
Socialism is superior to capitalism in one primary way: It offers more security. It's almost like an extremely expensive insurance policy that dramatically cuts into your quality of life, but insures that if worse comes to worse, you won't drop below a very minimal lifestyle. For the vast majority of people, this would be a terrible deal. On the other hand, if you're lazy, completely incompetent or alternately, just have a streak of very bad luck, the meager benefits provided by socialism may be very appealing. So a socialist society forces the many to suffer in order to make it easier for the few. It's just as Winston Churchill once noted, "The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

2) Capitalism encourages entrepreneurship while socialism discourages it: A government in a capitalist economy can quite easily give everyone equality of opportunity with a few basic laws and regulations, but socialism strives to create equality of results. This should frighten people who value their freedom because ultimately, as F.A. Hayek has noted, "A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers." You can see this happening in America as our efforts to reduce "inequality" have led to an ever expanding government and a vast regulatory tangle that is almost unexplainable despite the fact that it is certainly enforceable. Capitalism encourages people to start a business and build a better life for themselves while socialism lays in wait with IRS agents, nooses made of red tape and meddling bureaucrats looking for businesses to control and loot.

3) Capitalism leads to innovation: Coming up with new products is often time consuming, expensive and hit or miss. Nine ideas may fail before that tenth one takes off. The less the creative people behind these ideas are allowed to benefit, the less time, money and effort they'll put into developing new concepts and inventions. Put another way, the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward has to be to convince people to take it. Capitalism offers big rewards for productive people while socialism offers makers only a parade of bureaucratic leeches who want to take advantage of their "good fortune."

4) Capitalism produces more economic growth: Capitalism produces considerably more economic growth than socialism and as John Kennedy said, "A rising tide lifts all boats." A fast growing economy produces more jobs, more wealth and helps everyone. Many people assume that capitalism isn't working if there are still poor people, but that misses the point. In many parts of the world, poverty means living in a hut with a dirt floor while in America, most poor Americans have TVs, refrigerators and cell phones. The rich may take home a larger share of the pie in capitalism, but the poor also benefit tremendously from living in a growing, thriving economy.

5) Socialism is too slow to adapt: Capitalism is extremely good at allocating capital to where it's most valued. It has to be. Either you give people what they are willing to pay for or someone else will. On the other hand, socialism is slow and stupid for a variety of reasons. Because the government is spending someone else's money, it doesn’t get particularly concerned about losing money. Political concerns about appearances often trump the effectiveness of a program. Moreover, even if politicians and bureaucrats are intelligent and competent, which are big "ifs," they're simply not going to have the specific knowledge needed to make decisions that may impact thousands of different industries. This is why capitalism may have its share of troubles, but when there are really colossal economic screw-ups, you'll always find the government neck deep in the whole mess.

6) Socialism is inherently wasteful: Milton Friedman once said, "Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own. Nobody uses somebody else’s resources as carefully as he uses his own." This is very true and it means that the more capital that is taken out of the economy and distributed, the more of it that will be wasted. The market does a considerably better job of allocating resources than the government because there are harsh penalties for failure. A company that makes products no one wants will go out of business. A poorly performing government program that wastes a hundred times more money will probably receive a bigger budget the next year.

7) Capitalism works in concert with human nature while socialism works against it: Ayn Rand said it well, "America’s abundance was created not by public sacrifices to ‘the common good,’ but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America’s industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance—and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way," but Adam Smith said it better, “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” A man will work much harder to take care of himself, his family and his friends than he will to make money for the state, which will then waste most of it before redistributing it to people who aren't working as hard as the man who earned it in the first place.
All true.
 

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How true are these statements? :lupe:

1) Socialism benefits the few at the expense of the many:
Socialism is superior to capitalism in one primary way: It offers more security. It's almost like an extremely expensive insurance policy that dramatically cuts into your quality of life, but insures that if worse comes to worse, you won't drop below a very minimal lifestyle. For the vast majority of people, this would be a terrible deal. On the other hand, if you're lazy, completely incompetent or alternately, just have a streak of very bad luck, the meager benefits provided by socialism may be very appealing. So a socialist society forces the many to suffer in order to make it easier for the few. It's just as Winston Churchill once noted, "The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

2) Capitalism encourages entrepreneurship while socialism discourages it: A government in a capitalist economy can quite easily give everyone equality of opportunity with a few basic laws and regulations, but socialism strives to create equality of results. This should frighten people who value their freedom because ultimately, as F.A. Hayek has noted, "A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers." You can see this happening in America as our efforts to reduce "inequality" have led to an ever expanding government and a vast regulatory tangle that is almost unexplainable despite the fact that it is certainly enforceable. Capitalism encourages people to start a business and build a better life for themselves while socialism lays in wait with IRS agents, nooses made of red tape and meddling bureaucrats looking for businesses to control and loot.

3) Capitalism leads to innovation: Coming up with new products is often time consuming, expensive and hit or miss. Nine ideas may fail before that tenth one takes off. The less the creative people behind these ideas are allowed to benefit, the less time, money and effort they'll put into developing new concepts and inventions. Put another way, the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward has to be to convince people to take it. Capitalism offers big rewards for productive people while socialism offers makers only a parade of bureaucratic leeches who want to take advantage of their "good fortune."

4) Capitalism produces more economic growth: Capitalism produces considerably more economic growth than socialism and as John Kennedy said, "A rising tide lifts all boats." A fast growing economy produces more jobs, more wealth and helps everyone. Many people assume that capitalism isn't working if there are still poor people, but that misses the point. In many parts of the world, poverty means living in a hut with a dirt floor while in America, most poor Americans have TVs, refrigerators and cell phones. The rich may take home a larger share of the pie in capitalism, but the poor also benefit tremendously from living in a growing, thriving economy.

5) Socialism is too slow to adapt: Capitalism is extremely good at allocating capital to where it's most valued. It has to be. Either you give people what they are willing to pay for or someone else will. On the other hand, socialism is slow and stupid for a variety of reasons. Because the government is spending someone else's money, it doesn’t get particularly concerned about losing money. Political concerns about appearances often trump the effectiveness of a program. Moreover, even if politicians and bureaucrats are intelligent and competent, which are big "ifs," they're simply not going to have the specific knowledge needed to make decisions that may impact thousands of different industries. This is why capitalism may have its share of troubles, but when there are really colossal economic screw-ups, you'll always find the government neck deep in the whole mess.

6) Socialism is inherently wasteful: Milton Friedman once said, "Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own. Nobody uses somebody else’s resources as carefully as he uses his own." This is very true and it means that the more capital that is taken out of the economy and distributed, the more of it that will be wasted. The market does a considerably better job of allocating resources than the government because there are harsh penalties for failure. A company that makes products no one wants will go out of business. A poorly performing government program that wastes a hundred times more money will probably receive a bigger budget the next year.

7) Capitalism works in concert with human nature while socialism works against it: Ayn Rand said it well, "America’s abundance was created not by public sacrifices to ‘the common good,’ but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America’s industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance—and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way," but Adam Smith said it better, “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” A man will work much harder to take care of himself, his family and his friends than he will to make money for the state, which will then waste most of it before redistributing it to people who aren't working as hard as the man who earned it in the first place.

it's all true
just look at America
 

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1) gee...that doesnt sound like sweden...

2) the infrastructure we use to conduct capitalist activities comes from socialism (internet, streets, bridges, public school, etc.)

3) both socialism and capitalism lead to innovation (see point #2) so this is a wash

4) i sorta agree. capitalism is like a steroid; you need to start with muscles (socialism) but you can make them grow faster with steroids (capitalism). of course, if you abuse steroids too much you will mess yourself up pretty badly, breh...

5) i agree

6) i agree

7) human nature wants both capitalism and socialism depending on the person's circumstances. the ayn rand nonsense is bullshyt. a combination of government and private aggression, capitalism, socialism, and everything else produced the country we have today. those increasing wages came from unions and government spending on education. i agree with adam smith on men's motivation to work hard, and that the government can be wasteful, but there are things the butcher and the baker cant do, so government funding will always be needed, no matter what.you dont make decisions of macroeconomic and social importance based on a parable involving local artisanal workers.
 

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I agree.

As somebody whose family had to escape communism, I detest socialism and it's wastefulness.

Waiting in lines around the block for half the day to get a loaf of bread from otherwise empty stores is not what's hot in the streets.


All the negatives mentioned can be avoided/limited if our government was structured a little better and had better regulation/seperation of government and corporations
 

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On number 7: first of all, it's a blatantly unfalsifiable assertion, because "self-interest" is an incredibly vague term. Is it a conscious self-interest? That can't be true, because people do stuff without consciously thinking of themselves all the time (for example, a mother putting herself in harm's way to defend a child, or that cop in Iraq a few days ago who sacrificed himself to save those Shiite pilgrims from a Sunni suicide bomber by jumping on the bomb.) Is it unconscious and/or deeply instinctual? In that case, it can't be falsified, whether it relates to individual self-preservation or it relates to the preservation of your genetic line, as in the case of the mother sacrificing herself for her child. That's why I said it was irrelevant to politics and without proof. What is actually relevant is what you think an ideal life is and what kind of society best provides that option for you.
Sure, do you have an example of this in the market, cause economically people are providing services for their own gain... or as you put it, a conscious self-interest. We dont have smart phones and tablets because apple Apple cares about us...
 

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It doesn't need to be a choice, most well-functioning economies in the world use both systems.


Oh and

most poor Americans have TVs, refrigerators and cell phones. The rich may take home a larger share of the pie in capitalism, but the poor also benefit tremendously from living in a growing, thriving economy.

:heh: is he serious?
 
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