Rap Genius says Jamaican Sound Clash culture is what created Hip Hop.... thoughts?

[UpAndComing]

Rap/toasting is from Africa:

Igbo breh spittin

 

[Low End Derrick]

They definitely have a point.

But like most things tribal, there’s no space for nuance so this thread will probably turn into a pointless, aimless argument amongst the diaspora, like always.

 

[RadaMillz]

doesn't really matter
to the rest of the world

HipHop = AA
Reggae = Jamaican

 

[Actually6Foot3]

How many times are we going to have this same discussion?

 

[3rdWorld]

Probably..they were doing it in the 60s I believe..I have sound tapes from the 70s.
It's a superior artform in every sense, and hip-hops degradation over time proves it.

But ultimately it's a discussion not worth arguing, as it creates divide which is the last thing we need.
Time to move on.

 

[Nkrumah Was Right]

Igbo breh spittin

Yes, we Igbo have an oral tradition of rhythmic speechifying called mbem. Igbo amaka!

 

[UpAndComing]

Yes, we Igbo have an oral tradition of rhythmic speechifying called mbem. Igbo amaka!

Igbo Kwenu!!!!

Biafra forever

 

[kingofnyc]

- They said it started in the 1950s
- Had the guy controlling the music called the "Selector" which pre-dates the DJ
- Parties would consist of rival sound systems going against each other like in 1970s Hip Hop
- Toasting (which originated with ska, reggae, dancehall, and dub) pre-dates Rapping in America
- It was brought to the UK with the influx of Jamaican immigrants
- DJ Kool Herc who is Jamaican was influenced by Sound Clash culture and brought it to the US


So do they have a point?
Or are they completely off base?
Or is the truth somewhere in the middle?

@IllmaticDelta
@kingofnyc
@Ziggiy

Herc came to the Bronx when he was 11 years old.
he got shytted on by his peers for the way he dressed
he got shytted on by his peers for the way he talked
he got shytted on by his peers with the music he try to play in the parks
this is what he said on record, so he assimilate it into black American culture and as they say the rest is history

 

[Unemployed GM]

So if its Jamaican, why did it not simply get created on the island and why does it not sound like any other form of music originating from the islands

The because it is not from Jamaica or the any of the islands. I don‘t get where this narrative is coming from. Jamaicans never claimed hip hop and never wanted to.

 

[old pig]

not this again.

 

[K.O.N.Y]

They definitely have a point.

But like most things tribal, there’s no space for nuance so this thread will probably turn into a pointless, aimless argument amongst the diaspora, like always.

What point do they have. There’s no direct correlation to what’s in that vid to the birth of anything hip hop

 

[8WON6]

The because it is not from Jamaica or the any of the islands. I don‘t get where this narrative is coming from. Jamaicans never claimed hip hop and never wanted to.

Blame Busta Rhymes. He's going around telling people Jamaicans created hiphop.

 

[WIA20XX]

I don't trust Rap Genius, especially when they tried to rebrand as Genius.

Garbage site, parasite people

Why Genius Sold For Less Money Than It Raised - Trapital

 

[Nomad1]

did anyone even watch the video? it doesnt allude to that.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I'm late on the reply but to answer you question: NO!!!!!

Too many people got the chronology of how these thing played out wrong because they seem to have no knowledge of what was going on in Black America prior to the 1970s.

- They said it started in the 1950s
- Had the guy controlling the music called the "Selector" which pre-dates the DJ

The Jamaican "selector" is a DJ but what they're leaving out is that Jamaicans conceived of this because they heard Afram DJs on USA radio and wanted to emulate it and all things that came with what they heard from Black American radio Djs

- Parties would consist of rival sound systems going against each other like in 1970s Hip Hop
- Toasting (which originated with ska, reggae, dancehall, and dub) pre-dates Rapping in America

What Jamaicans call "Toasting" is actually an emulation of Afram "Jive Talk" that was done by Afram Radio DJs, Jazz, and Blues artists of the time period.






The Jamaicans who first pioneered their Soundsystem Culture/Toasting, openly admitted to this










.
.
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so no, Jamaican Toasting (an emulation of Afram Jive talk) DOES NOT predate Rapping in America.





The Afram "Toasting" tradition which was/is ancestral to Rap is even older than Afram "Jive Talk"

- It was brought to the UK with the influx of Jamaican immigrants
- DJ Kool Herc who is Jamaican was influenced by Sound Clash culture and brought it to the US

Herc was 12/13 when he came to the USA and by his own admission, was too young have been around the Jamaican Soundsystem culture. Herc's real direct influence was Afram "Disco DJs"



Same for Baambatta



who adds even more context to this



Specifically, a guy name DJ John Brown: The first person known to have rocked breaks (funk songs) for bboys circa 1970 (yes, bboys existed before Herc's parties even by his own admission)






.
.
.

The whole "battling" thing was imported from Afram Jazz culture going back to the 1930s

Jazz came early to the island. Daniel Neely is an ethnomusicologist who studies mento, a calypso-sounding but distinctly Jamaican folk music that came out of the creolization of the quadrille dance songs that slaves were forced to perform for their masters dating back to the 1700s. He has found newspaper references to jazz as far back as the 1920s.


"I have articles with the word jazz used as if it were not a new thing," Neely says. "I can say with certainty that jazz was in Jamaica by the early '20s, if not earlier. In fact, I have read suggestions that jazz was in Jamaica as early as the late teens. It's likely that the Gleaner wouldn't pay attention," he says of the leading Jamaican newspaper, which has published since 1834 and, until relatively recently, ignored downtown cultural trends in favor of the upper crust.

Neely says that the Ward Theatre, which still stands in the heart of downtown Kingston, kept a ledger of its performances. "Along with several concerts by sailors in port in the late teens, there were numerous minstrel groups from America who could have introduced jazz. Also, Marcus Garvey was organizing concerts in the teens," he says, invoking the name of the Jamaican firebrand activist and entrepreneur who is now a national hero. "I don't know if he had jazz in them explicitly, but it's possible that with his international connections jazz got to Jamaica rather quickly. However, it wasn't until the mid-1930s that organized, annual dance-band competitions began being held in Kingston. Some of the bands that competed in these competitions included the King's Rhythm Aces and the Rhythm Raiders. A major performer of that era was Milton McPherson. They were very, very popular."

Carlos Malcolm, 69, remembers his dad playing in one of these musical throwdowns: "In 1936 my father took an orchestra to Jamaica called the Jazz Aristocrats from Panama to play at Liberty Hall in a competition with Jamaican jazz musicians." Malcolm is a trombonist, composer and arranger who formed the Afro-Jamaican Rhythms in 1962 after conversations with Machito and Mongo Santamaria. His group was by far the tightest and most advanced ska group in the era, seamlessly blending Jamaican folk music and jazz and easily mixing harmonic and rhythmic complexities into their always grooving dance-band sound. He lived in Panama as a youth because, like so many other West Indians, his trombone-playing father went there to work on the Panama Canal.

In the early 1940s two U.S. military bases opened in Jamaica, and soldiers and sailors would trade records with the locals, sometimes in exchange for trips to houses of ill repute. A USO club on Old Hope Road in Kingston provided entertainment for the servicemen and work for Jamaican musicians. "World War II really decimated the big bands in the United States," Malcolm says, "but the big bands in Jamaica were going full blast all the way through the war. Because there was no recording industry there, [the music has] been lost."

"The whole tradition of the dance bands in Jamaica, a lot of that musicianship was developed on the matrix of jazz," says longtime Jamaican broadcaster Dermot Hussey, now a programmer for XM Satellite Radio. "Those musicians used to play arrangements and scores that they got out of England, largely, but also Ellington or Erskine Hawkins or whoever. There was always a love for the music in the country, especially among the musicians.

Jazz Articles: Jazz to Ska Mania - By Christopher Porter — Jazz Articles

So do they have a point?
Or are they completely off base?
Or is the truth somewhere in the middle?

@IllmaticDelta
@kingofnyc
@Ziggiy

They have no point and are totally off base because they clearly have the order of origination vs influenced, wrong.