Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

[GhostoftheMan]

And bring Sasha in and give Lance max minutes


Fisher is a fukkin clown

i can't stand his blank fukking stare when other teams go on runs

 

[Playa With Tha Passport]

Dont mind lance and sash gettn mins

They seem to be the only ones playing with any energy

 

[JMurder]

That thread title excuse looking real funny in the light

 

[Derek Lee]

If the starters don't make a huge run out of the gate, Fisher should let the bench finish out the rest of the game. It's the first of a back to back and Porzingis and Melo have been playing heavy minutes recently. I just hope we don't embarrass ourselves on TNT tomorrow night especially in front of Knicks critics Barkley and Reggie Miller who are broadcasting the game at Sacramento.

 

[NY's #1 Draft Pick]

If I was cleanthony I'd tell they ass to send me to d-league! More minutes and a winning team

 

[KnickstapeCity]

If I was cleanthony I'd tell they ass to send me to d-league! More minutes and a winning team

 

[I.V.]

I'mma start with the crappier response, because it's easier to get this out of the way.

You couldn't be any more wrong here fam.

Shut up.

Have you seen the stats & articles posted in this thread by me & others? Melo is having his best year defensively holding the players he guards to crazy lows.

Carmelo has gone through stretches of seasons where he has been committed to defense, and engaged. My point is he has never been consistent.

Being a consistent defender crosses 2-3 seasons... not 15-20 games. The article you're referencing has huge sample size issues, that include 1) a small amount of games, and 2) a lack of time guarding elite players.



Melo also has consistently passed the ball well this season

Nope.

& is actively looking for open guys & cutters; particularly KP.

This is actually true, the one player he has consistently gotten the ball to, is Porzingis - which is something I talked about in the post you quoted but obviously didn't read.


I'm not taking any shots at you

But?

but

There it is.

it makes me wonder if you & the others that dapped your comment are really watching the games.

I don't know who you are, and really it doesn't matter. I have watched every knicks game, often twice. I have a background in scouting, and have done extensive film work plus worked in sports reporting and writing for a bunch of years.

But more importantly, I have been watching melo since he was in high school (I played at the ABCD camp against him, and went to BC, who played Cuse in the Big East) -- I'm just VERY familiar with him, and I root for him. But I'm also a realist, and I know that he's less explosive than he's been ever in his career -- and he's not getting MORE explosive or quick over the next 3 years. Right?

He has never been an elite defender. He has only ever been a PLUS defender for stretches, and never for a whole season. Which is fine, I only ask him to be engaged, active, and aware. But he's getting older, and he's not going to be a great defender in this league going forward. It just isn't possible.

Even tonight, as you were typing this nonsense, he looked sluggish on defense, and didn't get around to rotate on two different plays that I caught while at work.

Speaking from above, I don't agree that he can't defend consistently at an average level. His on the floor off the floor splits for opponents' FG% are above average right now and while Lance Thomas is heaped with praise for his man defense, it's been Melo who takes the top wings whenever Lance isn't out there. We're seeing better wing defense from Melo than possibly he's ever played and while he's fairly average in help defense, his timing on blocked shots has gotten pretty damned impressive though I don't have any statistical backing for that. Just an observation that the swipe block which used to get whistled every time has become a no-whistle fast break catalyst on enough occasions to make it notable.

A couple of things here, because reasonable minds can disagree: His defensive metrics have never beared him out as above average over the course of the season, and rarely have even shown him to be average... so you "belief" that he can be is great - I think we all believe he could be an average defender, or even slightly better than that... but he's never shown it for any kind of significant stretch.

Also, he's been a TERRIBLE help defender over the course of his career. Consistently failing to make proper rotations, close out, or even double-down on bigs with any kind of efficacy.

Even tonight, he looked sluggish as hell both ON the ball and off the ball. And his larger plus minus splits are MASSIVELY helped this year by having KP and Lopez in his rotation, and Fisher's insistence on going with hockey substitutions.


As far as stopping ball movement on offense, I agree. But I'd posit that him holding the ball is a much better position for us to be in than Calderon and RoLo being the primary guys at the moment (even with Jose shooting well).

That's cool... but nobody is arguing for either of those guys to be "primary" - so that's kind of a red herring/strawman argument. I want Melo and KP to be the focus... but I also want them to move the ball within the offense to get the best shots possible.

Both should be able to happen.


But (again with no statistical support this, pure theory here) my belief is that when he gets his legs back; he'll start killing teams in those iso situations which will force the double teams. The biggest beneficiaries of that will be KP who already eats well when Melo draws the extra man and Calderon assuming he takes the open jumper.

This is a good hope, I hope it too. But, you have to be realistic about the fact that he's a declining athlete, not an improving one. So even as he gets his legs back... he'll never be 2007 melo again. Or even 2012 melo, for that matter. That's just time and science... not a criticism.

I don't think any one player is a franchise answer or altering star except maybe Lebron.

Well, Steph Curry has altered the Warriors franchise, Dirk altered the Mavs, Wade altered the heat... Tim Duncan altered the Spurs....

And specifically, Melo was supposed to be in the class of Wade and LeBron... now obviously, in time -- we've found that that simply isn't true. Which is fine, but when he joined new york with Amar'e he was supposed to make the team relevant again, and be a building block. It didn't work out.

It's not all his fault, management didn't get talent and made bad signings around him, draft picks got wasted or traded away... that's all fine. But time has proven that he is not the kind of star you can easily build around, he just doesn't do enough. Which is okay, it's just something we have to come to terms with.



When KP is at C, he has the advantages to make his own looks, but even when he's making jumpers on pull ups against PF's he's well guarded. Propel him to the number one option now and his efficiency wouldn't look much better than Melo's if at all imo (theoretical though).

I think it's a given that this season, if you made KP the primary scorer/focus his efficiency would be shyt. But so would all of the rookies, second year players too.

What Melo needs is a primary ball handler, so that he doesn't HAVE to create his own looks. Both he and KP would thrive with a more consistent playmaker than Calderon. That would make the first option whoever's open when the playmaker forces an uneven defense. Melo and KP would both thrive and see upticks in efficiency. I do trust that he'll give up the rock if there's someone out there creating, based mainly on his stints with Billups and Iverson which saw less forces even on isolations.

Do you remember his time in Denver? Because I do. And even then, he was a ball stopper. He's been this way since high school and college, it's just his game. Billups is the best point guard he's played with, and he still held the ball all time for isos... the difference is he had a higher level of quickness and athleticism to get him to the rack, and he was young and more active on offense cutting and finishing around the rim. He doesn't have that anymore, which means he needs to bully guys, which in turn slows the game down more.

I think a great point guard WOULD get him easier shots, but most of those would be jumpshots... because he has never moved well without the ball. That's just not a part of his game. He shoots twice as many threes as he used to... that's not changing, and even a good primary ball handler isn't going to get him SO many open 3's that it drastically improves his game.


Put it this way, if Melo's not on this roster in the offseason I don't think there's any chance that Horford, Conley or Durant consider the Knicks for winning reasons. If you replace KP with one of Towns, Okafor or Winslow (maybe Stanley or WCS too) then Melo and a young future stud would be enough to give us a shot. Reading quotes from AA, LMA and Lin also makes me think that Melo was more of a draw than our offseason showed. LMA wanted a look, but didn't feel comfortable in the role Phil offered and LMA mentioned Melo's role in garnering the initial interest. AA blatantly said Melo was part of the allure. Lin I bring up only because people think there's a Melo/Lin beef, but he was waiting for a call from NY this offseason.

But he has never attracted a top free agent. Or even a second tier free agent. He just hasn't. It's nice that LMA said he likes melo... but if you're not signing with us, you are just being polite. Some of the best players in the NBA have come up for free agency while Melo has been here, and nobody has signed, even though we had the money. I don't think we have a shot at Durant, and honestly - conley and horford are both going to be 30 or older next season... with A LOT of minutes on their bodies. I'm not sure either of them are the answer for max money (or near, which is what they'll be asking for).

In parting: Lance Thomas sucks, man. He is good enough to play for the knicks right now... but so is Sasha. Lance can't be in the rotation of any good to very good nba team.



I like going back and forth... I think you are more optimistic about Melo's next three years than I am... I guess it's just prognostication, so either of us COULD be right. But I have a LOT of history behind me.

In the mean time, this game has been an embarrassment.

 

[nomoreneveragain]

I've watched this brand of Basketball ever since they Traded Ewing.

What did I do to deserve this

 

[ikbm]

derek fisher with the dumb ass benching...now with sasha actually hitting his first 3 point shots in 4 weeks (no exaggeration) he's gonna put that fukking scrub back in rotation just cause of some buckets when we're down 35 like clockwork....i bet the house sasha is getting 10+ minutes next game

 

[A-Train]

Bout fukking time

 

[Derek Lee]

O'Quinn

 

[puggle]

Vujacic playing over Grant makes no sense at this point. I don't think the meaningless three he made late in the second quarter deserves him being the second man off the bench this half.

edit: of course this shythead makes another three

 

[HabeeNo]

Knicks with the fakeass comebacks yet again, here we go

 

[ikbm]

Vujacic playing over Grant makes no sense at this point. I don't think the meaningless three he made late in the second quarter deserves him being the second man off the bench this half.

edit: of course this shythead makes another three

lmao he's shooting zero pressure ass shots.
soon as that bum is back in the rotation he's back to bricking shots we actually need
hell, if by some longshot chance we're in the game and he has to take a timely shot...i guarantee he'll brick it.

 

[A-Train]

KOQ having an impact....shocking huh?