Mercatus Study Finds 'Medicare for All' Saves $2 Trillion over 10 years!

ColdSlither

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What about a compromise just as a start? One that keeps the government from fully running things, but also reigns in the insurance companies. How about making the health insurance companies non profit organizations, who have to operate within a set of guidelines and regulations set by the government? From there, work on the malpractice insurance and cases?

Regardless, something has to be done because things are out of control. Just my silly two cents.
 

Perfectson

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What about a compromise just as a start? One that keeps the government from fully running things, but also reigns in the insurance companies. How about making the health insurance companies non profit organizations, who have to operate within a set of guidelines and regulations set by the government? From there, work on the malpractice insurance and cases?

Regardless, something has to be done because things are out of control. Just my silly two cents.

but it's the not insurance companies...they make 3% margins, they do have mandated profits as well.

think of it like this. You buy a $20K car. If you wreck it, lets say all the mechanics charge $17K no matter what. When you get auto insurance they aren't going to charge $1,000 a year...they are gonna charge you 5-6K a year for insurance (or higher) based on the model they have of accidents per year. Insurance is just reacting to the market, yeah CEO's make a gazillions in the larger corporations, even if you lower their salary you add probably 1% back to the bottom line..the real issue is pharma, physicians, and legal malpractice cases. Insurance isn't telling the doctors or pharma to jack prices up and insurance is the one fighting to negotiate large volume discounts.
 

barese

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No data exists that supports what you're stating, most people under the age of 50 don't go in preventive (except kids), they go in when they are sick unless there's incentive . Older people go in and are predominately the users of routine checkups .

Europe is a whole continent speak specifics cuz everyone has a differences, what country are you saying "self regulates "

Not a country, the system adjusts number of visits based on severity becausetthe resources are limited (non urgent visits can take months, so you can't repeat them often to "live in the hospital").

Preventive medicine is not only for kids and old people (and it is telling that an American would know nothing about it).

Preventive medicine includes pap tests (50% of population does it regularly), dental (everyone should), vision (up to 75% of population have some forms of correction), chronic patients (often need flu shots or other seasonal vaccines to not complicate the chronic condition), people with a family history...
 

Perfectson

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Not a country, the system adjusts number of visits based on severity becausetthe resources are limited (non urgent visits can take months, so you can't repeat them often to "live in the hospital").

Preventive medicine is not only for kids and old people (and it is telling that an American would know nothing about it).

Preventive medicine includes pap tests (50% of population does it regularly), dental (everyone should), vision (up to 75% of population have some forms of correction), chronic patients (often need flu shots or other seasonal vaccines to not complicate the chronic condition), people with a family history...


The mass majority of americans do not do this, and lot of doctor's aren't testing for things. Ob-Gyn obviously and 50% is low as hell, but most Americans don't go in annually and do the range of test and it's actually because we have a short line to access care. Meanwhile your model has people waiting for months to be seen so they have to schedule this in advanced.
 

Perfectson

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Essential listening...also Perfectson is proof of the Dunning-Kruger effect, do yourselves a favor and don't bother with him.




You're a fukking idiot , she says literally the same thing I said you dumb moron.

I specifically stated it's not the insurance it's the hospitals and pharma . Youre an dumb ass, I want everyone to realize you have no intellect, you bring nothing to any topic.

She literally states it's not insurance fault and the guy kept trying to blame insurance and simplify to its insurance. It's the hospital and pharma ...she states insurance fights to negotiate down but she also state's the obvious that if doctors jack prices up then of course insurance benefits .

Of course insurance is a business but they are locked in a profit , so they are trying push costs down.

Everything I stated was agreed in your video
 

storyteller

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You're a fukking idiot , she says literally the same thing I said you dumb moron.

I specifically stated it's not the insurance it's the hospitals and pharma . Youre an dumb ass, I want everyone to realize you have no intellect, you bring nothing to any topic.

She literally states it's not insurance fault and the guy kept trying to blame insurance and simplify to its insurance. It's the hospital and pharma ...she states insurance fights to negotiate down but she also state's the obvious that if doctors jack prices up then of course insurance benefits .

Of course insurance is a business but they are locked in a profit , so they are trying push costs down.

Everything I stated was agreed in your video

:umad:

Your whole game is to twist what people say to suit your needs. Pay better attention at the 37:50 mark, insurance companies are not absolved and Sam and Elisabeth literally state the OPPOSITE of what you claim in bold (our current system has incentivized insurance companies NOT to want to negotiate prices down because higher costs improve their margins). You prove me right every time. This is why I tell people not to take you seriously and why I don't have serious discussions with you. I just let others know that you argue in bad faith and point out how pathetic you are to newcomers.

Also...Dumb Moron :heh:...are you 12?
 

Perfectson

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:umad:

Your whole game is to twist what people say to suit your needs. Pay better attention at the 37:50 mark, insurance companies are not absolved and Sam and Elisabeth literally state the OPPOSITE of what you claim in bold (our current system has incentivized insurance companies NOT to want to negotiate prices down because higher costs improve their margins). You prove me right every time. This is why I tell people not to take you seriously and why I don't have serious discussions with you. I just let others know that you argue in bad faith and point out how pathetic you are to newcomers.

Also...Dumb Moron :heh:...are you 12?


She never stated that, he said that, and she even kept saying no , I wouldn't and he kept interrupting her.

Insurance companies have locked prices , it's in their best interest to negotiate down, they always collected premiums and negotiating claims down is how they make their profits. She specifically stated who was to blame and it was aligned 100% to what I stated . The man pivot to try to blame insurance and she corrected him and said they are just pass throughs but he kept at it and she gave him that yeah they do profit and eat from the same trough but was very clear who was to blame , which are doctors and pharma. What is a pass through you dolt? Insurance isn't setting prices. I put an example of automobile insurance which is 100% accurate, you skipped it because you don't understand.


You didn't listen at all, you had your mind made up and basically selectively listened. You are not an expert in this field and neither us the guy , so your opinions don't hold any weight


I'm 1000x more qualified to talk a out this than you are, keeping finding opeds and regurgitate then because as always you have no independent thoughts or opinions based in anything that you can actually conjure up
 

Perfectson

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You liar you, @storyteller


She states insurance abide by UCR, this is one metric that insurances use to drive prices down. If someone tries to jack prices , insurances say no this is the UCR we won't pay more than this ...they do negotiate below UCR as well. UCR is the ceiling and he incorrectly states it's the floor , which is not true for Insurance. Typically insurance will contract to pay no more or at UCR.


She states this at 37:00 on now UCR came about and why.

At 38:29 he incorrectly tries to explain that insurances have no incentive to negotiate prices down , but they have no idea what the 80-85% is coming from, they have no idea where their premiums will come from and whether the population is healthy or unhealthy. So they are fighting to lower payouts because they have no precise understanding of what their future losses will be and if they don't meet the MLR insurers get the amount rebated back to them.

The only reason health insurance is going up is because doctors and pharma is out of control. If insurance lowered premiums every single one of them would be out of business in 2-3 years. And that's the same thing will happen to single payers, who have even less apetetite to negotiate , which is why medicare is frequently talked about being broke or heading toward underfunding

The money/premiums that insurance collected aren't going to some massive overheads they are actually sitting in accounts because of solvency II regulations insurances must hold x premiums in reserves in order to meet future obligations. Your understanding as most people's understanding of insurance is between 0 and poor
 

storyteller

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Sam Seder: Insurers are limited in terms of profits, I think it's 20% essentially, or I should say that their premiums..80% of their premiums need to go towards providing care for people; So there's an incentive for insurance companies to do the absolute opposite of what we would anticipate for them to do which is to negotiate prices down but they actually benefit from prices going up.

Elisabeth Rosenthal: Right! You know, 20% of a big pie is better than 20% of a small pie and again that's kind of the road to hell paved in good intentions...

Perfectson is literally lying. The only thing she pushes back on is describing the insurance companies deals with hospitals as kickbacks. You can listen to it yourselves, 37:50 is where it starts. Follow all the way through to "they (alluding to insurance companies) are not in you're corner, they're businesses."

Again, dude is not worth talking to, but I'm not about to let him front about what's being said here. She does say that hospitals deserve more scrutiny, she does not absolve insurance companies. That is absolutely not true.
 
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Perfectson

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Perfectson is literally lying. The only thing she pushes back on is describing the insurance companies deals with hospitals as kickbacks. You can listen to it yourselves, 37:50 is where it starts. Follow all the way through to "they (alluding to insurance companies) are not in you're corner, they're businesses."

Again, dude is not worth talking to, but I'm not about to let him front about what's being said here. She does say that hospitals deserve more scrutiny, she does not absolve insurance companies. That is absolutely not true.


Where does she say Insurance is the issue?

Furthermore her pushing back on calling it a kickback is because she's knows there's no connection between insurance and providers pricing, insurers have no problem if the prices were 15% lower. Health insurance operate at small margins or loss leaders for others products.

No where in this video is she calling insurance the problem and has called them pass throughs and her describing UCR shows she's vaguely understands that insurances do fight to lower prices
 
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storyteller

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Where does she say Insurance is the issue?

Furthermore her pushing back on calling it a kickback is because she's knows there's no connection between insurance and providers pricing, insurers have no problem if the prices were 15% lower. Health insurance operate at small margins or loss leaders for others products.

No where in this video is she calling insurance the problem and has called them pass throughs and her describing UCR shows she's vaguely understands that insurances do fight to lower prices

"She does not absolve insurance companies"
I'll post the exchange again where she points out that insurance companies do not have an incentive to negotiate the best possible prices for their users.

"Sam Seder: Insurers are limited in terms of profits, I think it's 20% essentially, or I should say that their premiums..80% of their premiums need to go towards providing care for people; So there's an incentive for insurance companies to do the absolute opposite of what we would anticipate for them to do which is to negotiate prices down but they actually benefit from prices going up.

Elisabeth Rosenthal: Right! You know, 20% of a big pie is better than 20% of a small pie and again that's kind of the road to hell paved in good intentions..."

This implies that the insurance companies exacerbate the problem by not working to get you the best price possible because it hurts their own bottom line. None of this is to say that insurance is THE singular issue, another of your strawman attempts. But it does say that Insurance Companies are part of the problem due to their focus on profits. Hospital charges, pharmaceuticals AND insurance companies are ALL problematic with issues to be addressed. Insurance company profit motives have exacerbated runaway costs. Insurance companies do not FIGHT for anyone and the current paradigm pushes them in that direction.
 

Perfectson

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"She does not absolve insurance companies"
I'll post the exchange again where she points out that insurance companies do not have an incentive to negotiate the best possible prices for their users.

"Sam Seder: Insurers are limited in terms of profits, I think it's 20% essentially, or I should say that their premiums..80% of their premiums need to go towards providing care for people; So there's an incentive for insurance companies to do the absolute opposite of what we would anticipate for them to do which is to negotiate prices down but they actually benefit from prices going up.

Elisabeth Rosenthal: Right! You know, 20% of a big pie is better than 20% of a small pie and again that's kind of the road to hell paved in good intentions..."

This implies that the insurance companies exacerbate the problem by not working to get you the best price possible because it hurts their own bottom line. None of this is to say that insurance is THE singular issue, another of your strawman attempts. But it does say that Insurance Companies are part of the problem due to their focus on profits. Hospital charges, pharmaceuticals AND insurance companies are ALL problematic with issues to be addressed. Insurance company profit motives have exacerbated runaway costs. Insurance companies do not FIGHT for anyone and the current paradigm pushes them in that direction.


Where does she state insurances are the problem?

I'll answer since you're too stupid to do so, she doesn't

No where in that does she say Insurance is the problem , no where. Not having an incentive is a generic statements , ucr is a specific way that insurances try to keep prices down or reasonable...rhe issue is again pharma and doctors


You're a fukkin Moron, you go all around and no where does she state insurances is the problem despite opportunities and the host trying to get her to
 

storyteller

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Where does she state insurances are the problem?

I'll answer since you're too stupid to do so, she doesn't

No where in that does she say Insurance is the problem , no where. Not having an incentive is a generic statements , ucr is a specific way that insurances try to keep prices down or reasonable...rhe issue is again pharma and doctors


You're a fukkin Moron, you go all around and no where does she state insurances is the problem despite opportunities and the host trying to get her to

Track back through the conversation we've had and let's look at my claims vs yours because you keep moving goal posts and twisting words.

Your claim:
she states insurance fights to negotiate down

My claim:
I call you a liar and transcribe where she agrees that the opposite is true.
"Sam Seder: Insurers are limited in terms of profits, I think it's 20% essentially, or I should say that their premiums..80% of their premiums need to go towards providing care for people; So there's an incentive for insurance companies to do the absolute opposite of what we would anticipate for them to do which is to negotiate prices down but they actually benefit from prices going up.

Elisabeth Rosenthal: Right! You know, 20% of a big pie is better than 20% of a small pie and again that's kind of the road to hell paved in good intentions..."

My follow-up claim:
She does not absolve insurance companies. That is absolutely not true.

Your response does not address this but instead you ask:
"Where does she say Insurance is the issue?"

I clarify my point again:
"She does not absolve insurance companies"

Here's me going into more detail...
"None of this is to say that insurance is THE singular issue, another of your strawman attempts. But it does say that Insurance Companies are part of the problem due to their focus on profits. Hospital charges, pharmaceuticals AND insurance companies are ALL problematic with issues to be addressed. Insurance company profit motives have exacerbated runaway costs."

You go back to a claim that I did not make:
Where does she state insurances are the problem?

This is what I meant when I said:
"Your whole game is to twist what people say to suit your needs."

You can't beat the actual claims I'm making. So you go to an easier argument to refute, which is that I think she's claiming insurance companies are the problem as opposed to bad actors that exacerbate the situation. I've explained, using her own transcribed words where it was implied that the insurance companies do not have an incentive to try to keep prices down and reasonable (I keep reposting it to try and keep us on topic). This is getting sad breh, you're triggered harder than when AOC's name comes up in any way shape or form and you're falling back to the typical mechanisms you use to shield yourself from honest discussions or debates. It's sad and I'll keep letting people know how you move because it's frustrating to watch someone misinform people, but hilarious to watch the emotional breakdown that follows when anyone refutes your BS.
 
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