Leasing/Buying Solar Panels Anyone Else Doing It?

[teacher]

There actually IS an investment since you're paying-out money even though I believe the majority, if not all of it, is financed. The question is, how long would it take you to recoup the investment and how much lower would your electric bill be if you had just installed other energy-efficient measures. I'd have to research Suffolk Cty. to see how many degree-days you have on average, but one of the issues with solar panels in the Northern states is the amount of sunlight they'd be able to convert due to overcast weather conditions and seasonal changes in direct sunlight vs. indirect. I don't mean to scare you, since I do believe solar panels are a good investment. It's just that the tech needs a bit more improvement, IMO, to be truly cost-effective in many parts of America and warrant the costs associated with installation and maintenance of the equipment. Some people end-up paying more for electricity via solar panels than if they had stayed with the regular utility plan.

$.20/KwH is on the high-side since the Nat'l Average is about $.15.

Did you have an energy audit performed on your home to see if the installation would be cost-beneficial or was this a 'cold pitch' from a solar panel company?
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I'm a bit confused by what you mean as investment I'm not paying anything but a monthly bill of 150. There are no other costs associated, the solar panels are still technically there's so they maintain it themselves as well as the part of my roof that the panels sit on. Again installation is free so I don't see how it isn't beneficial and the amount of wattage its supposed to produce is cheaper then if I paid the electric company. If I make more power to then I used I don't pay an electric bill that month just solar, at the end of the year if I produce more power then I use the electric company owes me a check. The system was supposed to be bigger(13000) but because of shading got reduced.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

20 yr plan is a long commitment for something electrical that's gonna be outside. how good can they survive harsh winters in a 20 yr period?

dec, jan, feb (and probably march too) hit me with $900 in utilities despite having insulation in all windows
pump for heater broke in jan and had to shell out $1,500 to fix it next day cause of renter

this has been a tough winter. i contemplated committing that.


anyone knows anything about the program that utility company comes and updates lighting fixtures for small business for free? i need that

What you're looking for is called Weatherization. It is available in every State through the Department of Energy.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/wip/
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The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) Weatherization and Intergovernmental Program provides grants, technical assistance, and information tools to states, local governments, community action agencies, utilities, Indian tribes, and overseas U.S. territories for their energy programs. These programs coordinate with national goals to reduce petroleum consumption and increase the energy efficiency of the U.S. economy. They aim at market transformation to reduce market barriers to the cost effective adoption of renewable energy and energy efficiency technologies.

 

[teacher]

the only winner in leasing solar panels are the solar companies

Well the fact that the supposed power the panels generate is at a cheaper costthen the electric company and in the case of overages they cut me a check sounds like I might win a little bit to, electric might not be so happy though

20 yr plan is a long commitment for something electrical that's gonna be outside. how good can they survive harsh winters in a 20 yr period?

dec, jan, feb (and probably march too) hit me with $900 in utilities despite having insulation in all windows
pump for heater broke in jan and had to shell out $1,500 to fix it next day cause of renter

this has been a tough winter. i contemplated committing that.


anyone knows anything about the program that utility company comes and updates lighting fixtures for small business for free? i need that

The 20 year lease is transferable that's another reason I went with fixed lease, easier to sell if I want to before the 20 years.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

I'm a bit confused by what you mean as investment I'm not paying anything but a monthly bill of 150. There are no other costs associated, the solar panels are still technically there's so they maintain it themselves as well as the part of my roof that the panels sit on. Again installation is free so I don't see how it isn't beneficial and the amount of wattage its supposed to produce is cheaper then if I paid the electric company. If I make more power to then I used I don't pay an electric bill that month just solar, at the end of the year if I produce more power then I use the electric company owes me a check. The system was supposed to be bigger(13000) but because of shading got reduced.

What was your average bill under the original utility? If you're paying 150/12 = $1800/yr. For 20 years, that's $36,000 you're paying for a $50k install.

That's why I asked if you had an audit performed.​

 

[Kritic]

Well the fact that the supposed power the panels generate is at a cheaper costthen the electric company and in the case of overages they cut me a check sounds like I might win a little bit to, electric might not be so happy though



The 20 year lease is transferable that's another reason I went with fixed lease, easier to sell if I want to before the 20 years.

flex pics tomorrow after install. it takes me a year or 2 to be convinced. after what barack and them did with solyndra i've never really checked on solar. the chinese ran them out of business but chinese panels aren't up there in quality control unless there's american quality control. nothing made in china will last 2 years let alone 20...

Spoiler

i've been watching and excel graphing utilities the last 3 years. they're hurting me but this year i just gave up and went into a monthly payment plan to avoid shut off . why doesn't obamacare cover utilities? smh. barack always fuqqin up...
i have a pretty much new roof on the loft. it's nice and flat but food is expensive so i'd planned to be a farma this summa and turn it into a garden and grow my own food up there
also one of the ac units died last year but it takes a crane and more costs to take it down the roof. so i switched to a few 12,000btu window ac units which are much much cheaper to run than running the big ass ac unit.

generally these bills are killing me all year round.

 

[teacher]

What was your average bill under the original utility? If you're paying 150/12 = $1800/yr. For 20 years, that's $36,000 you're paying for a $50k install.

That's why I asked if you had an audit performed.​

850 watts cost me 200 bucks which was about a month and a half of usage(slightly less). When factoring costs you have to also factor in the cost of maintenance(which maybe nothing or alot, but peace of mind is priceless) as well as leasing or buying these panels the electric company is more then likely going to owe me a check at the end of the year.

Panels just completed installation even with this overcast the meter is going backward

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

850 watts cost me 200 bucks which was about a month and a half of usage(slightly less). When factoring costs you have to also factor in the cost of maintenance(which maybe nothing or alot, but peace of mind is priceless) as well as leasing or buying these panels the electric company is more then likely going to owe me a check at the end of the year.

Panels just completed installation even with this overcast the meter is going backward

How much insulation is in the attic, in inches, and what type? Are the walls insulated? I see one roof vent, there should be more on a roof that size unless there are more on the other side or you have soffit vents under the gutter or a gable vent on the edge.

What type of heating system do you have; Hot-air furnace or boiler, and what type fuel? Do you have a fireplace? Is either one of these pictures an addition? Is the house on a slab, crawlspace, or finished/unfinished basement? How many windows do you have? How old are they? How old is the house?

How many sq. ft. of living space (only rooms in home that have heat), and how many bedrooms/bathrooms? 1 story, multi-story, duplex? How old are the appliances (refrigerator, washer/dryer, freezer)? Do you have recessed lighting in any ceilings? How large is your water heater and what fuel type?

There's about 40-50 more questions I'd have to ask you to get a better understanding of your energy situation on top of running several diagnostics on your entire home to calculate what your money would be best spent on. I've found that most people would gain the best benefit by general air-sealing, heating/AC delivery system repair, and replacing lights and older appliances (+10 years). The average cost of these measures ranges from about $3k to about $10k and is pretty much guaranteed to lower energy costs with little/no maintenance. The more energy-efficient your home is initially, the less you'd need to do, the less you'll lower your costs.

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[BlvdBrawler]

How does the lease work? After 20 years, they come and remove the panels?

What happens when multi-layer cells become available and these become massively obsolete? Is there an upgrade option?

 

[Maddmike]

Im an electrician and ive been thinking about getting into this. This just opened my eyes as to how many people are really intrested. in about 10 years this might become a huge field.

 

[Maddmike]

Could you have built that yourself and saved money?

If you buy the panels, the installation is easy enough to be learned through youtube. Ive installed hella solar street lights and airfield panels. Nothing on the scale of powering a house but bigger panels only mean bigger wire.

 

[teacher]

How much insulation is in the attic, in inches, and what type? Are the walls insulated? I see one roof vent, there should be more on a roof that size unless there are more on the other side or you have soffit vents under the gutter or a gable vent on the edge.

What type of heating system do you have; Hot-air furnace or boiler, and what type fuel? Do you have a fireplace? Is either one of these pictures an addition? Is the house on a slab, crawlspace, or finished/unfinished basement? How many windows do you have? How old are they? How old is the house?

How many sq. ft. of living space (only rooms in home that have heat), and how many bedrooms/bathrooms? 1 story, multi-story, duplex? How old are the appliances (refrigerator, washer/dryer, freezer)? Do you have recessed lighting in any ceilings? How large is your water heater and what fuel type?

There's about 40-50 more questions I'd have to ask you to get a better understanding of your energy situation on top of running several diagnostics on your entire home to calculate what your money would be best spent on. I've found that most people would gain the best benefit by general air-sealing, heating/AC delivery system repair, and replacing lights and older appliances (+10 years). The average cost of these measures ranges from about $3k to about $10k and is pretty much guaranteed to lower energy costs with little/no maintenance. The more energy-efficient your home is initially, the less you'd need to do, the less you'll lower your costs.

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no insulation in the attic or crawl space....I hope to be taking care of that sometime this month hopefully sooner then later. I'm assuming the walls are insulated for the most part because we weren't freezing during this winter which was one of the worst cold wise in the north east for a while. There are 2 roof vents one where each solar panel are sitting on, I don't think there are gutter vents.

Heating is base board from oil (which kicked my azz this winter). House is on a crawl space again with no insulation, working on that. 14 windows in total and a garage. Not sure how old they are but they aren't super old or the bank would of never approved.

2800 sq ft. every room has a base board( even garage) except the hallways. 2 full baths. All the appliances are relatively new....year or so at best. Have recessed lighting but changed all the lights to energy efficient lights. I've done alot of air sealing and pretty much eliminated all the drafts. My boiler is as old as the house most likely which was built in the 70's. Gas is in the area and I want to look into converting. I have no water heater yet, but I was waiting for the panels to go electric with that. No central A/C or ductless A/C yet..

How does the lease work? After 20 years, they come and remove the panels?

What happens when multi-layer cells become available and these become massively obsolete? Is there an upgrade option?

I don't think I'll be able to upgrade, it was never mentioned. But you can say that about anything why buy the 2014 M3 when the 2020 M3 is going to kill it. You're either in the game or a spectator. But I do have the newest version of solar panel which allows for one panel in the array to shut off if shaded while the others still do there thing. With the older ones if one array was shaded the entire array would shut off.

 

[teacher]

If you buy the panels, the installation is easy enough to be learned through youtube. Ive installed hella solar street lights and airfield panels. Nothing on the scale of powering a house but bigger panels only mean bigger wire.

The install of the panels on the roof didn't seem to difficult knowledge wise, but extremely labor intensive. It took a team of about 10 guys with experience 8 Hours to install the panels on the roof. The whole wiring it into your existing breaker box though would be probably way over my head. Joints are mad sturdy too dudes were walking on top of the panels like nothing.

 

[Digga38]

good thread

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

no insulation in the attic or crawl space....I hope to be taking care of that sometime this month hopefully sooner then later.

That's about 30% of your oil bill right there. Every time you turn your heating/AC unit on, you're actually throwing that conditioned air right out of your home through the roof. Sheet rock is not airtight, nor is it highly insulated. I believe the R-Value averages to about 3, which means it takes 3 hours for the heat in your home to go through it, into your attic, and out of your home. You've probably never seen a large accumulation of snow on your roof and have large icicles each year on the edge. That's due to the snow being melted off and running down the roof to form stalactites. Attics should normally be air-sealed and insulated to an R-value of 38-50.​

I'm assuming the walls are insulated for the most part because we weren't freezing during this winter which was one of the worst cold wise in the north east for a while. There are 2 roof vents one where each solar panel are sitting on, I don't think there are gutter vents.

Never assume the walls are insulated. The only way to know for sure is to poke a hole in one and use a wire coat hanger to probe the cavity. What I've found is that walls normally do have some fiberglass batt insulation in them, but, depending on how long ago it was installed and if it was installed properly, that insulation is not making contact with the pressure boundary (the actual wall). This means that conditioned air is bleeding into the walls through the sheet rock and taking that heated/cooled air out of your house. You'd also have to air-seal the top and bottom of the wall cavities (in the crawlspace and attic) so the air won't be able to move and take heat and A/C with it. I normally recommend dense-packing the walls with blown-in cellulose insulation which air-seals each wall cavity and insulates it to an R-value of at least 11-14.​

Heating is base board from oil (which kicked my azz this winter). House is on a crawl space again with no insulation, working on that. 14 windows in total and a garage. Not sure how old they are but they aren't super old or the bank would of never approved.

If the insulation on the walls is sub-standard or not making contact with the pressure boundary, every time you turn on your heater, the heat is bleeding into the wall cavities and out of your home. Also, your crawlspace is probably not air-sealed. If the floor in each room is cold in the winter even with the heat on, now you know why. Insulation would help, but it needs to be in-contact with the actual flooring to do its job. Another way to insulate a crawlspace is to install insulation along the perimeter walls rather than against the floor. This is known as 'bringing the crawlspace inside'. This is done when there are heating ducts/pipes that run through crawlspaces that are already reasonably air-tight. This ensures that heat that bleeds out of the ducts/pipes actually stays in the conditioned space of the home rather than being lost to the outside. If you want to know if this is happening in your crawlspace, just put a thermometer in the crawlspace while the heat is running and check it after about 20 minutes. If the temperature in the crawlspace is more than 10 degrees warmer than the outside, that's where some of your heat is going. The alternative is to air-seal and insulate the ducts/heating pipes in the crawlspace which is labor-intensive. New boilers usually run about $5 - $8k. New windows are a waste of money unless they are in such bad condition that you basically have holes in the walls rather than windows.​

2800 sq ft. every room has a base board( even garage) except the hallways. 2 full baths. All the appliances are relatively new....year or so at best. Have recessed lighting but changed all the lights to energy efficient lights. I've done alot of air sealing and pretty much eliminated all the drafts. My boiler is as old as the house most likely which was built in the 70's. Gas is in the area and I want to look into converting. I have no water heater yet, but I was waiting for the panels to go electric with that. No central A/C or ductless A/C yet..

Does every room with a baseboard unit have it's own thermostat? If not, you might want to consider upgrading your system. This is a low-cost heating system upgrade which installs zone-valves on the main lines of your boiler to individually control the temperature in each room. Makes no sense to heat a room to 65 degrees if no one is in it. If your boiler is older than 20 years, you'd benefit immensely from a new one. 20+ year old systems are usually less than 70% efficient, which means for every dollar you spend on oil, $.30 of each one is being lost due to inefficient combustion rather than heating your home. Recessed lighting is a notorious energy-loss. Each recessed light acts like a small chimney in your ceiling and allows heat/AC to escape into the attic or ceiling cavity. Newer recessed lights are air-sealed and insulated to cut-down on this problem, but many times aren't installed correctly and may cause fires. Depending on how many people live in your home, you might be better off going with a combination boiler/water heater rather than a separate water tank. I normally recommend units like this if the home has less than 5 people:



Unless someone is living in the garage, remove that baseboard unit.

There is only one way to know if the air-sealing you've done is actually sufficient and that's by doing a blower-door test:



I'll add that all these tactics would also help to keep your home cool in the summer. Do NOT invest in AC until you air-seal and properly insulate your home or your electric bill will be astronomical.

As a rough estimate purely based on the dimensions and existing equipment/issues you've posted, I'd say about $9 - 11k would lower your bills about 25% - 40%. This includes a new boiler, professional air-sealing and insulation of the attic (walls if necessary) and crawlspace.

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[teacher]

After a month with solar panels the electric company owes me $170, and the town hasn't come by to inspect yet so I haven't even started paying solar city