Lawrence Otis Graham, Best Selling Author of Our Kind of People, dies at 58

[get these nets]

Her mother was like president of the Los Angeles AKAs at one point I think.



Nah.. I think that picture was relatively recent.

............

This is their grandfather, Dr. Julian Taylor, a baptist minister.

He was an arch nemesis to Martin Luther King Jr. and the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference. When I read Shirley's family biography years ago, this was one of the most eye opening things. She said her father extremely disliked MLK and that informed their own perceptions of him growing up. And if I recall, they were a bit apathetic about his assassination, that's how deep the hate ran. I can't remember what started the feud though. At the time, I didn't know there were blacks that were against King so that was surprising to see.

Read a few excerpts of the book, and it's very candid. Colorism was so blatant in past eras that it's weird reading about it.
"Julian was a candidate to become the minister of the church, but the congregants made it known that he was too dark"

I remember LOG saying on camera that when he was interviewing older people for his book, that one of women (in Memphis) refused to allow him in her home. He was the wrong color. He said it in a matter of fact manner, and that is what startled me the most.

Shocking to read about MLK feuding with Rev. Taylor. Only thing that I can point to as the source was that Taylor might have been at odds with one of King's mentors, from when he was at Boston U., Rev. William Hunter Lester. That man was closer in age to him, they were both Baptists, and operated in the same New England region.

I'm thinking that whatever problem existed carried over into his views about King. Taylor was over 25 years older than King, so I don't think it stemmed from any personal rivalry.
Very interesting, though. I've never met a person from Taylor's generation say anything negative about MLK. Even those who criticized his methods when he was alive respected him being on the front lines, and ultimately giving his life.

 

[invalid]

Read a few excerpts of the book, and it's very candid. Colorism was so blatant in past eras that it's weird reading about it.
"Julian was a candidate to become the minister of the church, but the congregants made it known that he was too dark"

I posted these pictures before, but this is my family's church back in the day.

When they let in darkskins.

Church was wall to wall this back in the day...

@Barnett114 I bet this Washington Park is unrecognizable.

The Taylors were from New Haven, Connecticut. So I wasn't aware there was much of that going on there since New Haven had a big WI population. What's more shocking was that they were Baptist. But I later read that in many of the older northern cities, there were upscale baptist congregations of the high respectability type.

Shocking to read about MLK feuding with Rev. Taylor. Only thing that I can point to as the source was that Taylor might have been at odds with one of King's mentors, from when he was at Boston U., Rev. William Hunter Lester. That man was closer in age to him, they were both Baptists, and operated in the same New England region.

I'm thinking that whatever problem existed carried over into his views about King. Taylor was over 25 years older than King, so I don't think it stemmed from any personal rivalry.
Very interesting, though. I've never met a person from Taylor's generation say anything negative about MLK. Even those who criticized his methods when he was alive respected him being on the front lines, and ultimately giving his life.

If I recall, it had to do with Baptist leadership. King was selected to lead the Baptist Leadership Conference. Rev. Taylor didn't think King was qualified. I think there were murmurs about King way before some of the scandals that were associated with him that came out during the Cointelpro years (he was a serial philanderer, etc.) And Taylor didn't want him leading. There was a feud and I believe the Baptist convention split, with King leading the new Southern Baptist Convention and Taylor leading it's northern component. Don't quote me on this but but I'm trying to recall from memory.

 

[Wear My Dawg's Hat]

Never seen it.



This is her sister. Same parents.

But as to her father's credentials.



And actually, I think her mother, even though very fair, I think her father was brown skin as well. I read their family biography about 20 years ago and I think she said that's what attracted her to Harold because he in some ways reminded her of her father.

Shirlee Taylor Haizlip's books:

Shirlee Taylor Haizlip

 

[Wear My Dawg's Hat]

Melissa Haizlip produced a documentary about her uncle, Ellis, who was the host of
the groundbreaking PBS series, "Soul."

 

[get these nets]

Melissa Haizlip produced a documentary about her uncle, Ellis, who was the host of
the groundbreaking PBS series, "Soul."

I saw this when it aired. I should have remembered the unique last name.

 

[Wear My Dawg's Hat]

I saw this when it aired. I should have remembered the unique last name.

It's quite good. Highly-recommended viewing.

 

[invalid]

Melissa Haizlip produced a documentary about her uncle, Ellis, who was the host of
the groundbreaking PBS series, "Soul."

We went to spread my aunt and uncles ashes on Martha's Vineyard back in 2018. That was my last time on the Vineyard. We got tickets to the MV African American Film Fest where Melissa was debuting Mr. Soul. It was a great documentary. Never knew about the series before then.

 

[get these nets]

I posted these pictures before, but this is my family's church back in the day.

Thanks, this ties into another thread topic that I'll reply to later

I
The Taylors were from New Haven, Connecticut. So I wasn't aware there was much of that going on there since New Haven had a big WI population.
What's more shocking was that they were Baptist. But I later read that in many of the older northern cities, there were upscale baptist congregations of the high respectability type.

Interesting. The freemen and then the affluent Black community in many regions were Anglican and Methodist traditionally, correct?

How does Trinity United fit into that? I remember you posted the clip of the current minister of Trinity preaching at a church on Martha's Vineyard. You mentioned that this was formerly Rev. Wright's church. I don't know the denomination , but having attended several different church services, my ear told me that I was hearing a Baptist (influenced)sermon.

If I recall, it had to do with Baptist leadership. King was selected to lead the Baptist Leadership Conference. Rev. Taylor didn't think King was qualified. I think there were murmurs about King way before some of the scandals that were associated with him that came out during the Cointelpro years (he was a serial philanderer, etc.) And Taylor didn't want him leading. There was a feud and I believe the Baptist convention split, with King leading the new Southern Baptist Convention and Taylor leading it's northern component. Don't quote me on this but but I'm trying to recall from memory.

Thanks. I figured politics played into it, and had a small suspicion that his colleagues in New England might have heard rumors or knew firsthand about the womanizing when he went to school up there.

For there to have been an apathetic response from that family to King's assassination, it had to have been deeper than that. Much deeper.

 

[invalid]

Interesting. The freemen and then the affluent Black community in many regions were Anglican and Methodist traditionally, correct?

Apparently not. Think of Harlem for example. The big time church was/is Abyssinian Baptist Church once helmed by Adam Clayton Powell. There was an upper class black church in every mainline denomination represented in most historically black communities. Baptist, Methodist, AME, Presbyterian, Catholic, Congregational, Lutheran, Episcopalian.

The only churches that has never been associated with upscale folks are the historically black COGIC, Pentecostal Assemblies, Holiness churches. But I think in LA, there is a Pentecostal church that is really big with celebrities.

How does Trinity United fit into that? I remember you posted the clip of the current minister of Trinity preaching at a church on Martha's Vineyard. You mentioned that this was formerly Rev. Wright's church. I don't know the denomination , but having attended several different church services, my ear told me that I was hearing a Baptist (influenced)sermon.

Trinity was formed out of the Church of the Good Shepherd which is a congregational church and one of Chicago's historic black elite churches. My impressions are that the younger kids left to form Trinity whereas the older family members were at Good Shepherd. My family's church had the same dynamic, carved out as a younger version of an older antebellum historic episcopal church. The United Church of Christ (UCC) is a rebrand/offshoot of the Congregational Church

 

[get these nets]

Thanks for the correction about the churches. I'd like to know why you found it odd that the Taylors were Baptist. I thought that you were saying that the Black elites of that region were primarily of another denomination.

The only churches that has never been associated with upscale folks are the historically black COGIC, Pentecostal Assemblies, Holiness churches.

Grew up in COGIC

cogic life

Hehehe.
======

But I think in LA, there is a Pentecostal church that is really big with celebrities.

Yeah, I think it's West Angeles Church. COGIC was an element in what became gospel music, and a lot of the stars of the genre come out of that tradition. Los Angeles plays heavily into the Church history, and so that along with entertainment industry in Los Angeles....adds up that there's a church that many Black celebs attend.

Partially because the other denominations are splintered, COGIC has one of the largest Protestant denomination memberships in America, regardless of race.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Apparently not. Think of Harlem for example. The big time church was/is Abyssinian Baptist Church once helmed by Adam Clayton Powell. There was an upper class black church of every mainline denomination represented in most historically black communities. Baptist, Methodist, AME, Presbyterian, Catholic, Congregational, Lutheran, Episcopalian.

The only churches that has never been associated with upscale folks are the historically black COGIC, Pentecostal Assemblies, Holiness churches.

facts

 

[invalid]

I'd like to know why you found it odd that the Taylors were Baptist.

No, I was saying it was shocking that the Baptist were practicing colorism. I was quoting a specific point you made about colorism but quoted it wrong.

Hehehe

Haha...no offense. My god mother was COGIC and she thought it was a good idea to persuade my mother to send me to vocational bible school with her kids at her COGIC church. My mother said and would ship me off to her house to go to VBS. I had some very good memories. Lots of activities. They had bbqs for us at the end of every week. I remember being in a classroom and hearing their choir practice down the hall which was my first exposure to gospel. Made some good friends. The head pastor called me fat once (I swear to god I was not fat) but nothing but love over here. .

Yeah, I think it's West Angeles Church. COGIC

Yeah this the one.

 

[get these nets]

No, I was saying it was shocking that the Baptist were practicing colorism. I was quoting a specific point you made about colorism but quoted it wrong.



Haha...no offense. My god mother was COGIC and she thought it was a good idea to persuade my mother to send me to vocational bible school with her kids at her COGIC church. My mother said and would ship me off to her house to go to VBS. I had some very good memories. Lots of activities. They had bbqs for us at the end of every week. I remember being in a classroom and hearing their choir practice down the hall which was my first exposure to gospel. Made some good friends. The head pastor called me fat once (I swear to god I was not fat) but nothing but love over here. .

It's all good. That rug was pulled from under me when I took a class about the Black Church.
The pastor of our Church made it a point to have the kids learn the origin and history of COGIC in Sunday School. But that college class about the Black Church explained where it fit within the broader Black community.

Because of the importance of Philadelphia in the history of freemen, I thought that AME would figure more prominently in the religious tradition of the Black elite. I also assumed that about the Angl./Episcopal tradition.

I haven't read the books from that class or OKOP in years, but I do remember bits of LOG's bookstore appearances.



I might have had this clip in mind when I watched the segment of the Trinity pastor preaching in the Henry Louis Gates video.

 

[get these nets]

Sylvia Rhone is one of the few that I've heard that had white passing family members who actually did well.
But apparently, a lot of people thought she was white because it was a big controversy when LOG outed her.
Edit 3: Here she is, Alice Mason.

He talks about it, gives other examples, and mentions the playbook that's used for those who pass.

When LOG first went on his media rounds, he reminded me of Donald Bogle, a film historian. Similar mannerisms. I picked his books and always remembered an obscure film based on a real life story.

The image above depicts Dr. Albert C. Johnston, his wife Thyra Johnston, and their four children. The 1949 movie Lost Boundaries, was based on the story of Dr. Johnston’s life. Dr. Johnston, a biracial radiologist who graduated with honors from the University of Chicago’s Rush Medical School, unintentionally passed for white in the 1930s. After completion of his postgraduate work, Johnston could not find a job that would hire African Americans. Eventually, he was hired at Maine General Hospital in Augusta, Maine, the only place that did not inquire about his race. When he realized his associates and co-workers believed he was white, he maintained the secret of his actual identity for over a decade. His wife, who was one-eighth black, understood her husband’s predicament and kept his secret as well. In 1940, the United States Navy recruited Dr. Johnston but suspected him of having “colored blood.” After Dr. Johnston admitted in the investigation to being partly black, the Navy refused him a commission. Stunned by the rejection, Dr. Johnson decided to tell his children about their background. However, this revelation did not impact the Johnson family's role in society. The family continued to live in New Hampshire where Dr. Johnson operated his medical practice into the 1960s.

trailer


film snippet

 

[invalid]

I took a class about the Black Church.

I did too. Taught by a professor who was a baptist minister. First time learning about what he called "the black sacred cosmos."

Because of the importance of Philadelphia in the history of freemen, I thought that AME would figure more prominently in the religious tradition of the Black elite. I also assumed that about the Angl./Episcopal tradition.

I haven't read the books from that class or OKOP in years, but I do remember bits of LOG's bookstore appearances.



I might have had this clip in mind when I watched the segment of the Trinity pastor preaching in the Henry Louis Gates video.

It's funny that he mentions the woman in Chicago who said that her group views themselves as black 'WASP'. There is a whole history behind the Anglican/Episcopalian and Congregational Churches being affiliated with the American elite.

In New England, the Congregational Church was founded by the Pilgrims who were escaping the Church of England. So the Congregational Church was the church most affiliated with New England WASP, many of whom were the descendants of the Mayflower that landed in Plymouth.

The South was first populated by royalist who founded Jamestown - English Landed Gentry who brought over the Church of England and the English feudal system that would eventually become the plantation system. So the southern aristocrats were affiliated with the Anglican/Episcopal Church while the poorer non-landowning descendants of Scots-Irish immigrants were southern baptist.

House slaves had to attend church with the masters which is how the Anglican/Episcopal Church entered into that faction of the black elite.

Many of the early WASP abolitionist had ties to the Congregational Church, so you had a lot of free blacks become affiliated with that Church due to their views on racial equality.

Some even say that the Civil War was was a continuation of the Battle of Hastings, which was a war against the Normans and the native Anglo-Saxons. The Normans obviously won and dominated the English Aristocracy. In the US, the English Slave Owners would've been of Norman descent whereas the New England WASP would be descendants of the Saxons.

And then you had the broader black bourgeoise who took to the AME Church.

This is generalizing but that's how you got the major affiliations of the Congregational, Episcopal, and AME Churches with the black elites. But again, there were upscale churches of most mainline denominations in most cities with sizeable black communities.

Trinity United Church of Christ is Congregational so that's why it had a big population of Chicago's upscale blacks.