It’s Time to Stop Blaming George R.R. Martin for Game of Thrones’ Demise

King Crimson

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lol at @King Crimson getting so in his feelings that someone criticized the writing on "Game of Thrones" that he's tossing out negs. :mjlol:







Breh, any objective observer could see shytty writing completely independent of "fan theory" desire. I had no vested interest either way but the episodes I watched the writing was terrible.

Already posted a season 6 tear-down, here's one from season 7.
I don’t care that you critiqued the show. Have at it. Especially everything after season 5. I don’t give a shyt. What you said is inaccurate though.

Also, for you not to give a shyt, you found a post of mine from 2016 to neg. You clearly care, bro. It’s ok. :russ:
 

duck

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It's all on grrm. If he'd finished his shyt they'd have an actual blueprint to go off off. He's done non-related shows..video games...everything he could these past few years. It's time to realize he gave up, winds of winter is never coming out
 

Professor Emeritus

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I don’t care that you critiqued the show. Have at it. Especially everything after season 5. I don’t give a shyt. What you said is inaccurate though.

Also, for you not to give a shyt, you found a post of mine from 2016 to neg. You clearly care, bro. It’s ok. :russ:

You're the one who negged me first dumbass. I would have just negged your response, but you were too chickenshyt to give a response. Couldn't neg your latest comment cause you hide your profile. So I did a search and negged the first result. :childplease:
 

Optimus Prime

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Which brings me to THE WINDS OF WINTER.

Most of you know by now that I do not like to give detailed updates on WINDS. I am working on it, I have been working on it, I will continue to work on it. (Yes, I work on other things as well). I love nothing more than to surprise my readers with twists and turns they did not see coming, and I risk losing those moments if I go into too much detail. Spoilers, you know. Even saying that I am working on a Tyrion chapter, as I did last week, gives away the fact that Tyrion is not dead. Reading sample chapters at cons, or posting them on line, which I did for years, gives away even more. I actually quite enjoyed doing that, until the day came that I realized I had read and/or posted the first couple of hundred pages of WINDS, or thereabouts. If I had kept on with the readings, half the book might be out by now.

So I am not going to give you all any kind of detailed report on the book, but…

I will say this.

I have been at work in my winter garden. Things are growing… and changing, as does happen with us gardeners. Things twist, things change, new ideas come to me (thank you, muse), old ideas prove unworkable, I write, I rewrite, I restructure, I rip everything apart and rewrite again, I go through doors that lead nowhere, and doors that open on marvels.

Sounds mad, I know. But it’s how I write. Always has been. Always will be. For good or ill.

What I have noticed more and more of late, however, is my gardening is taking me further and further away from the television series. Yes, some of the things you saw on HBO in GAME OF THRONES you will also see in THE WINDS OF WINTER (though maybe not in quite the same ways)… but much of the rest will be quite different.

And really, when you think about it, this was inevitable. The novels are much bigger and much much more complex than the series. Certain things that happened on HBO will not happen in the books. And vice versa. I have viewpoint characters in the books never seen on the show: Victarion Greyjoy, Arianne Martell, Areo Hotah, Jon Connington, Aeron Damphair They will all have chapters, and the things they do and say will impact the story and the major characters who were on the show. I have legions of secondary characters, not POVs but nonetheless important to the plot, who also figure in the story: Lady Stoneheart, Young Griff, the Tattered Prince, Penny, Brown Ben Plumm, the Shavepate, Marwyn the Mage, Darkstar, Jeyne Westerling. Some characters you saw in the show are quite different than the versions in the novels. Yarra Greyjoy is not Asha Greyjoy, and HBO’s Euron Greyjoy is way, way, way, way different from mine. Quaithe still has a part to play. So does Rickon Stark. And poor Jeyne Poole. And… well, the list is long. (And all this is part of why WINDS is taking so long. This is hard, guys).

Oh, and there will be new characters as well. No new viewpoints, I promise you that, but with all these journeys and battles and scheming to come, inevitably our major players will be encountering new people in lands far and near.

One thing I can say, in general enough terms that I will not be spoiling anything: not all of the characters who survived until the end of GAME OF THRONES will survive until the end of A SONG OF ICE & FIRE, and not all of the characters who died on GAME OF THRONES will die in A SONG OF ICE & FIRE. (Some will, sure. Of course. Maybe most. But definitely not all) ((Of course, I could change my mind again next week, with the next chapter I write. That’s gardening)).

And the ending? You will need to wait until I get there. Some things will be the same. A lot will not.

No doubt, once I am done, there will be huge debate about which version of the story is better. Some people will like my book, others will prefer the television show. And that’s fine, you pays your money and your make your choice. (I do fear that a certain proportion of fans are so angry about how long WINDS has taken me that they are prepared to hate the book, unread. That saddens me, but there nothing I can do about it, but write the best book that I can, and hope that when it comes out most fans will read it with clean hands and an open mind).

That’s all I can tell you right now. I need to get back to the garden. Tyrion is waiting for me.
 

King Crimson

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You're the one who negged me first dumbass. I would have just negged your response, but you were too chickenshyt to give a response. Couldn't neg your latest comment cause you hide your profile. So I did a search and negged the first result. :childplease:
I know I negged you first, stupid. That’s not the point. It’s that you could’ve picked anything recent, instead you went for a post from 2016.
And I didn’t respond because your stupid take wasn’t worth responding too and people set you straight better than, and with more patience than I would have. Now go along and find something else to do on a Saturday night, bozo.
 

Dave24

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Which brings me to THE WINDS OF WINTER.

Most of you know by now that I do not like to give detailed updates on WINDS. I am working on it, I have been working on it, I will continue to work on it. (Yes, I work on other things as well). I love nothing more than to surprise my readers with twists and turns they did not see coming, and I risk losing those moments if I go into too much detail. Spoilers, you know. Even saying that I am working on a Tyrion chapter, as I did last week, gives away the fact that Tyrion is not dead. Reading sample chapters at cons, or posting them on line, which I did for years, gives away even more. I actually quite enjoyed doing that, until the day came that I realized I had read and/or posted the first couple of hundred pages of WINDS, or thereabouts. If I had kept on with the readings, half the book might be out by now.

So I am not going to give you all any kind of detailed report on the book, but…

I will say this.

I have been at work in my winter garden. Things are growing… and changing, as does happen with us gardeners. Things twist, things change, new ideas come to me (thank you, muse), old ideas prove unworkable, I write, I rewrite, I restructure, I rip everything apart and rewrite again, I go through doors that lead nowhere, and doors that open on marvels.

Sounds mad, I know. But it’s how I write. Always has been. Always will be. For good or ill.

What I have noticed more and more of late, however, is my gardening is taking me further and further away from the television series. Yes, some of the things you saw on HBO in GAME OF THRONES you will also see in THE WINDS OF WINTER (though maybe not in quite the same ways)… but much of the rest will be quite different.

And really, when you think about it, this was inevitable. The novels are much bigger and much much more complex than the series. Certain things that happened on HBO will not happen in the books. And vice versa. I have viewpoint characters in the books never seen on the show: Victarion Greyjoy, Arianne Martell, Areo Hotah, Jon Connington, Aeron Damphair They will all have chapters, and the things they do and say will impact the story and the major characters who were on the show. I have legions of secondary characters, not POVs but nonetheless important to the plot, who also figure in the story: Lady Stoneheart, Young Griff, the Tattered Prince, Penny, Brown Ben Plumm, the Shavepate, Marwyn the Mage, Darkstar, Jeyne Westerling. Some characters you saw in the show are quite different than the versions in the novels. Yarra Greyjoy is not Asha Greyjoy, and HBO’s Euron Greyjoy is way, way, way, way different from mine. Quaithe still has a part to play. So does Rickon Stark. And poor Jeyne Poole. And… well, the list is long. (And all this is part of why WINDS is taking so long. This is hard, guys).

Oh, and there will be new characters as well. No new viewpoints, I promise you that, but with all these journeys and battles and scheming to come, inevitably our major players will be encountering new people in lands far and near.

One thing I can say, in general enough terms that I will not be spoiling anything: not all of the characters who survived until the end of GAME OF THRONES will survive until the end of A SONG OF ICE & FIRE, and not all of the characters who died on GAME OF THRONES will die in A SONG OF ICE & FIRE. (Some will, sure. Of course. Maybe most. But definitely not all) ((Of course, I could change my mind again next week, with the next chapter I write. That’s gardening)).

And the ending? You will need to wait until I get there. Some things will be the same. A lot will not.

No doubt, once I am done, there will be huge debate about which version of the story is better. Some people will like my book, others will prefer the television show. And that’s fine, you pays your money and your make your choice. (I do fear that a certain proportion of fans are so angry about how long WINDS has taken me that they are prepared to hate the book, unread. That saddens me, but there nothing I can do about it, but write the best book that I can, and hope that when it comes out most fans will read it with clean hands and an open mind).

That’s all I can tell you right now. I need to get back to the garden. Tyrion is waiting for me.

@Piff Perkins
 

Piff Perkins

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Not much to say, none of this makes sense. He moved nearly 200 pages from ADWD to Winds which came out in 2011. It's now 2022. So in a decade, which included 1.5 years where he was literally holed up in a cabin due to the covid quarantine, he hasn't added 700 pages to that total? That's less than 100 pages a year. So either he's just so bogged down rewriting/struggling or it's something else. My theory, and the only thing that kinda makes sense to me, is that he has too many pages and no ending in sight. IE he's been trying to rewrite his way out of having to announce another AFFC/ADWD situation where a book is splint into two parts. He wants to end this with 7 books but will announce it'll be 8, basically.

Or maybe he literally is stuck. It sucks because at least with AFFC/ADWD we understood the hang up. He would update people regularly on the blog, noting he was stuck trying to figure out the Meereenese Knot. For those who have watched the show but didn't read the books: a bunch of characters and events converge in Meereen, and George couldn't figure out how to sequence them in order to get Dany from one point to another point. He ultimately solved it by making Barristan Selmy a POV character. When he announced on his blog that he solved the issue, I remember thinking oh man the book is coming soon. And sure enough he finished a year after that, if I remember correctly. We have no idea what's holding him back now and it makes the wait even more puzzling.

Given the amount of POV characters and the slow pace of his writing post-ASOS, I really think it's a volume issue. How many chapters can Tyrion have, how many can Arya have, etc. And where do you end their stories while setting up to continue them in the final book. That's gotta be the struggle right?
 

The Wolf Among You

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It's all on grrm. If he'd finished his shyt they'd have an actual blueprint to go off off. He's done non-related shows..video games...everything he could these past few years. It's time to realize he gave up, winds of winter is never coming out

Absolutely not. George can take however long he wants, it’s his shyt.
D&D should’ve handed the show off to a new showrunner like HBO suggested.
 

JuvenileHell

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What world are you living in where nobody is blaming D&D? :mjlol:

You do realize that them nikkas names are DIRT now right?

Yep, they rushed S8 to do Star Wars and then lost that because of the backlash from S8, but no one blames D&D? :laff:
 

O.Red

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It's all on grrm. If he'd finished his shyt they'd have an actual blueprint to go off off. He's done non-related shows..video games...everything he could these past few years. It's time to realize he gave up, winds of winter is never coming out
Grrm did give them a blueprint. The problem is the execution of the blueprint

And yea nikkas can point to the books not being done but honestly D&Ds character favoritism began to cause cracks in the story as early as season 4

Let's not forget that season 5 was also bad, and contained terrible writing mistakes that only further deteriorated the story

Season 7/8 didn't become bad out of nowhere. It was a slow leak
 

The Wolf Among You

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Yep, they rushed S8 to do Star Wars and then lost that because of the backlash from S8, but no one blames D&D? :laff:

I never said no one blames D&D, I said that due to them falling back from the spotlight, the general public have grown increasingly angry with George for not finishing the books, and correlating the unfinished source material as one of the reasons for the show’s downfall.
Which is wrong. George shouldn’t get any blame for the show, that ire needs to stay with those two gentlemen.
 
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