Interesting story coming out of NYU. Professor Maitland Jr prominent chemist was fired after students complained his course was too hard.

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No, I dont agree meritocracy is bullshyt at all; the systemic issues just interfere with it. Meritocracy is what we should aim for ultimately. As opposed to nepotism, cronyism and "networking"; all "rewards" should be determined by ones ability, not their background or who they know or whose offspring they are. Systemic racism undermines the background part and fukks up early development.

What is the "baseline competence" level you speak of ? Sounds to me just another way of say "merit" without saying "merit".
What you're discussing is still meritocracy, you're just debating where you want to draw the line and at what point.


Once again you've misinterpreted my plain words.

Baseline competence is exactly what it sounds like - the baseline competence you need to succeed in the field. That's where the bar should be placed. It involves zero comparison to anyone else, it is evaluating you based on your performance compared to the objective needs of the profession, not compared to other students.


Supposed "meritocracy" instead ranks students against each other (as opposed to against an objective standard) based on a set of scores, many of which have little relevance to the actual field (for example, anyone with a 650 score on the SAT Verbal has just as much chance of becoming a good doctor as someone with an 800 score on the SAT Verbal, the gap at that level is virtually meaningless to doctoring skill). Instead of being compared to the actual needs of the profession, you're being compared to other students, and thousands of students who are perfectly capable of succeeding in the profession are instead "weeded out" as a high school junior or as a college freshman or when the take the MCAT merely because they didn't do as well as other students on some arbitrary test, even if they are more than capable and might have been admitted in a different year with a weaker class.


There's a world of difference between a baseline competence model and a "meritocracy" model, and moving towards competence rather than false "meritocracy" (as some elite schools have already started to do) would have a profound impact on education. Instead of focusing on improving standardized test scores with no real-world benefit and arbitrarily "weeding out" students via hurdles that have nothing to do with the profession, both the high school and college experiences could revolve around helping students learn and become better at the things they actually want to do with their lives. Instead of the college experience being framed as some sort of rat race where your primary goal is to outpreform the people around you via whatever grading structure the profession has chosen to throw into the syllabus that year, the college experience could be built around improving your own ability level, actually learning shyt that matters and becoming competent at skills you need.


This is where the Ipsative Assessment movement comes in. This is where the anti-SAT movement comes in. Both have some elite backers among professionals in the field and are being incorporated more and more into education. But they also have powerful enemies. And the vast majority of the opposition is formed because either A) people are afraid of change and tend to default to whatever system they themselves came from, or B) they're defenders of the elite and want to protect the gateways that keep the advantage in the hands of the elite.




None of this is about making school "easy". None of this is about removing rigor or problem-solving or critical thinking from the classroom. It's all about using actual meaningful standards to achieve those objectives, rather than just ranking students against each other for the sole purpose of ensuring that a certain # succeed and a certain # fail based primarily on how much advantage they had leading up to that moment.
 
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kronix

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@yseJ , your mention of cheating brought this article to mind:



The craziest thing about the scandal isn't that the school cheated to get nearly 40% of its students into the Ivies and Stanford. The crazy thing is that many of them did just fine when they got there. Even though they were poor black kids, even though their high school prep was mediocre, even though they didn't really have the test scores, even though they didn't really have the grades, they were able to succeed when given a chance. Pretty crazy to me that less than 1% of poor Black kids will ever have the shot of an education like that when so many of them could demonstrably handle it in that real life experiment.

When you don't put arbitrary obstacles in the way, a lot more poor Black kids can succeed than the "meritocracy" bullshyt artists would have you think.
Interesting read. It seems like access to resources is the biggest predictor of academic success. In that case, our education system needs a complete revamp because top schools sell the idea that the standards they use to accept students generally predict future success. Rather it seems the schools and their resources not the artificial standards are what lead to success. Thanks for the drop
 

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Once again you've misinterpreted my plain words.

Baseline competence is exactly what it sounds like - the baseline competence you need to succeed in the field. That's where the bar should be placed. It involves zero comparison to anyone else, it is evaluating you based on your performance compared to the objective needs of the profession, not compared to other students.


Supposed "meritocracy" instead ranks students against each other (as opposed to against an objective standard) based on a set of scores, many of which have little relevance to the actual field (for example, anyone with a 650 score on the SAT Verbal has just as much chance of becoming a good doctor as someone with an 800 score on the SAT Verbal, the gap at that level is virtually meaningless to doctoring skill). Instead of being compared to the actual needs of the profession, you're being compared to other students, and thousands of students who are perfectly capable of succeeding in the profession are instead "weeded out" as a high school junior or as a college freshman or when the take the MCAT merely because they didn't do as well as other students on some artbitrary test, even if they are more than capable and might have been admitted in a different year with a weaker class.


There's a world of difference between a baseline competence model and a "meritocracy" model, and moving towards competence rather than false "meritocracy" (as some elite schools have already started to do) would have a profound impact on education. Instead of focusing on improving standardized test scores with no real-world benefit and arbitrarily "weeding out" students via hurdles that have nothing to do with the profession, both the high school and college experiences could revolve around helping students learn and become better at the things they actually want to do with their lives. Instead of the college experience being framed as some sort of rat race where your primary goal is to outpreform the people around you via whatever grading structure the profession has chosen to throw into the syllabus that year, the college experience could be built around improving your own ability level, actually learning shyt that matters and becoming competent at skills you need.


This is where the Ipsative Assessment movement comes in. This is where the anti-SAT movement comes in. Both have some elite backers among professionals in the field and are being incorporated more and more into education. But they also have powerful enemies. And the vast majority of the opposition is formed because either A) people are afraid of change and tend to default to whatever system they themselves came from, or B) they're defenders of the elite and want to protect the gateways that keep the advantage in the hands of the elite.




None of this is about making school "easy". None of this is about removing rigor or problem-solving or critical thinking from the classroom. It's all about using actual meaningful standards to achieve those objectives, rather than just ranking students against each other for the sole purpose of ensuring that a certain # succeed and a certain # fail based primarily on how much advantage they had leading up to that moment.
Considering top schools have limited seats who gets those spots if we move to a baseline competence model?
 

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Considering top schools have limited seats who gets those spots if we move to a baseline competence model?


Numerous possibilities and it would be up to the university itself, but criteria could include fulfilling certain societal needs (more black doctors, more female programmers, more male teachers, etc.) or supporting populations the school has taken an interest in (more engineering prospects from rural Appalachia, more biologists from inner-city Memphis). You can also take students who have research/career interests that match your programs and professors well. Or students with extracurriculars or personalities that you think will enhance your student body. Or favor students who reside near the school, or go the other way and favor students from as diverse geographical background as possible. And in the end if you've fulfilled your basic needs then you just take the rest via lottery.

If the other students who don't win the lottery happen to be elite then they'll be fine, they'll get in somewhere else. Perhaps they won't get into their first choice or they'll end up at a "lower tier" school than they initially wanted, but LOTS of people have that problem already. Doing well on an arbitrary standardized test or attending some elite prep school has been turned into some sort of evidence you "deserve" more opportunity than other people, but that's arbitrary bs.

That system would piss some people off, because it's different. But it's a hell of a lot better system then just repeatedly admitting the students from the most privileged backgrounds and rejecting the students who society was already fukking over, solely because you want to maintain society's elite under a false pretext of "meritocracy".
 
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Interesting read. It seems like access to resources is the biggest predictor of academic success. In that case, our education system needs a complete revamp because top schools sell the idea that the standards they use to accept students generally predict future success. Rather it seems the schools and their resources not the artificial standards are what lead to success. Thanks for the drop

There are 38 American universities who admit more students from the top 1% wealthiest families than from the bottom 60%.

C- high school students from the top 10% socioeconomic bracket are more likely to eventually earn a college degree than A students from the bottom 10% socioeconomic bracket.

The system is entirely predicated on elitest bullshyt, and damn near every single effort to resist change is at some level is supported by those who wish to maintain those hierarchies.
 

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I'm a finance director at the School-level for an elite University on the East Coast

His year to year contract suggests to me he is no longer standing faculty...standing faculty hold A LOT of power

Ultimately, higher Ed institutions are concerned w/ the upcoming recession, which could lead to projected deficits for future fiscal years. You can't have one professor ruining the reputation of a dept when departmental budgets can be predicated on enrollments.

From a senior leadership standpoint, canning homey seems to be a prudent & wise decision.
 

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I'm a finance director at the School-level for an elite University on the East Coast

His year to year contract suggests to me he is no longer standing faculty...standing faculty hold A LOT of power

Ultimately, higher Ed institutions are concerned w/ the upcoming recession, which could lead to projected deficits for future fiscal years. You can't have one professor ruining the reputation of a dept when departmental budgets can be predicated on enrollments.

From a senior leadership standpoint, canning homey seems to be a prudent & wise decision.
Aren’t recessions good for college enrollment though
 

Gritsngravy

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Kinda off topic, but this reminds me of the professor that I took during undergrad. I got a D on one of the exams, but because of the curve I ended up getting a B.

Literally after taking the exam a group of us were standing in the lobby talking about how ridiculous the exam was. Some of these professors are insane lol.
Yea some professors go overboard
 

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I've taken o-chem, it's interesting in its own way but the problems you need to solve to do well in a difficult o-chem course have absolutely zero relevance to the vast majority of doctors. Unless you're a research physician studying certain mechanisms at a really foundational level, you're literally never going to run into that shyt in a medical practice. I've been told that most physicians have already forgotten all the o-chem they ever learned in undergrad and never find it relevant to anything.

I'm not saying that knowing chemistry is useless for a doctor. There are several specialities for which you'll use knowledge of chemistry on an occasional or even semi-regular basis. But that primarily involves some pretty basic awareness of the biochemical aspects of certain diseases, or how acid-base reactions play out, and can be learned on its own in very short time with limited background. The actual "tough" problems in o-chem are shyt that 99% of doctors are never going to reason out again once they're done with their boards.



Dr. Donald Barr found that 50% of underrepresented minorities at Stanford and UC-Berkeley dropped out of pre-med (compared to only 17% of other students), and chemistry was listed as the #1 reason why. He thinks the pre-med curriculum is basically filling the need of a century ago, has become completely outdated and is "weeding out" many of the best doctor prospects and causing them to drop out before they even get to medical school.


Thanks for tapping back in. Seems to be the case an I engineer and survey. Half the shyt I learned in school I've forgotten out of practice...that's why we have the books though I suppose to supplement thought
 

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I agree with this, it takes a certain type of skill to teach people


That's why learning about a university's commitment to teaching standards should be a top-3 priority for almost every prospective undergraduate. It's really, really important to find out how committed their professors are to teaching and how much they evaluate them on that basis. Too many schools hire professors solely for their name (which usually comes as a result of publications, not teaching), and then many of those professors either do a shyt job in the classroom or they have inexperienced and sometimes unqualified grad students doing all the work for them instead.

Do you know what teaching qualifications you have to have as a grad student to teach a section in most universities? Often literally none. Teaching 1-2 sections of a course is simply a requirement of their PhD stipend in many cases, regardless of how much teaching skill they do or don't have. So you have these students who are in the middle of fulfilling their life's goal in PhD research, who have literally NEVER taken a course on teaching or had any previous teaching experience or skill or even desire, and then they're put up in front of a class and told to teach it solely as a condition of their degree when their actual research is what they care about 100x more. And the actual professor whose name is on the course might be someone you never even have a personal conversation with unless you actively make it happen.
 

mitter

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You can't be this dumb :mjlol:
Even though NYU's incoming class every year since he started teaching has gotten better grade-wise, standardized test score-wise, extracurricular activity-wise, etc.

They're declining in quality :heh:
It's not the aging, curmudgeon professor, its all of the students huh?


This is silly.

High school grades don't mean anything. If a given high school class is much worse today than they were 10 years ago, the teacher is still going to give them a similar grade distribution. Teachers and Professors are just looking out for their own jobs, routinely giving good grades to undeserving students to keep everyone happy.

Doing well on one standardized test is also not very meaningful. It doesn't capture the ability and drive to do the work required to master a subject at the university level.


The fact is, today's students have very short attention spans, don't put in the time and effort that they used to, and act more entitled than they did in the past.
 

mitter

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I'm a finance director at the School-level for an elite University on the East Coast

His year to year contract suggests to me he is no longer standing faculty...standing faculty hold A LOT of power

Ultimately, higher Ed institutions are concerned w/ the upcoming recession, which could lead to projected deficits for future fiscal years. You can't have one professor ruining the reputation of a dept when departmental budgets can be predicated on enrollments.

From a senior leadership standpoint, canning homey seems to be a prudent & wise decision.


Yes, of course it is good for the university's bottom line. But it is bad for the university's scholarship standards.

The relationship between university and student has been corrupted to the point where students are viewed by the university as customers, and where students act like customers. It is sad and will have long-term consequences.
 
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