Indian government to endorse Universal Basic Income

Red Shield

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UBI + mass automation = Neo feudalism...The kings of old shall have returned...A firmly entrenched ruling class and everyone below is just shyt out of luck...no social mobility,no economic mobility...

hell at that point they may even lock your UBI to a specific county and end physical mobility as well

There won't be any ubi.. because the vast percentage of people will just/are going to be killed


in the usa anyway..


so all of this is really just unnecessary intellectual masturbation
 

Swirv

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If this is done right it will be a boon for humanity
 

Sukairain

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This is nonsensical. UBI is one of the most complete wealth distribution programs possible. The effects would have nothing to do with what demonetization did.

Maybe you don't understand what Universal Basic Income is? It's not a minimum wage.

There are minimum wages already, but aren't enforced. If you have a UBI then you don't have to worry about enforcement because you're giving, not regulating. And you're no longer forcing people to be treated like slaves in order to earn a slave-like income...which is what most of the low-end wage jobs in India are.

I was talking to my wife about this last night, and she's shocked that it's even possible because it would completely upend the caste system. A large part of the culture for some people is to be able to force certain people to do your bidding in certain ways, and UBI, if real, would dramatically reduce the ability of the high-caste and high-class to have their way anymore. No way the BJP party in general is for this, but it would impress me extremely if Modi means it, and it's possible he really does.

Not sure how it will impact caste. All of the ten wealthiest Indian individuals come from a lower caste, and after them, most of the rest of the financial elite aren't Hindus. While my family is from a higher caste, and despite that both my parents grew up as peasants in villages, on the poverty line. Caste isn't as strongly linked to wealth as many would expect. It's the Banias (who are in the third grouping out of four caste groups) and the Parsis (who aren't even Hindus) who dominate finance.
 

Professor Emeritus

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Not sure how it will impact caste. All of the ten wealthiest Indian individuals come from a lower caste, and after them, most of the rest of the financial elite aren't Hindus. While my family is from a higher caste, and despite that both my parents grew up as peasants in villages, on the poverty line. Caste isn't as strongly linked to wealth as many would expect. It's the Banias (who are in the third grouping out of four caste groups) and the Parsis (who aren't even Hindus) who dominate finance.


If you notice I pointed out that high-class and high-caste are separate categories, both of which will be affected.

High-class will be affected first by the redistribution of wealth, secondly by huge changes in the incentives necessary to attract laborers and make work meaningful. To some degree, depending on the family, they will have to pay more to find people willing to work for them.

High-caste will be affected because for many of them (not all of course), there are a lot of aspects of their life that they've considered beneath them which it may become harder and harder to find others willing to do anymore.

I agree that it's not completely predictable what will happen. But I imagine there will be large contingents of both groups who will seriously resist such a change.
 

Pitfalls0117

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Not sure how it will impact caste. All of the ten wealthiest Indian individuals come from a lower caste, and after them, most of the rest of the financial elite aren't Hindus. While my family is from a higher caste, and despite that both my parents grew up as peasants in villages, on the poverty line. Caste isn't as strongly linked to wealth as many would expect. It's the Banias (who are in the third grouping out of four caste groups) and the Parsis (who aren't even Hindus) who dominate finance.
Exactly, there's even a certain percentage of government positions reserved for untouchables
 

Saka

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:mjlol:

looks like i touched a nerve :jaymad:


dogfukkers like you always find the need to come in an say some slick shyt about people shytting in the streets

7.5% annual growth rate cac :umad:

you won't be able to live off the achievements of your ancestors for ever cac :umad:
 

the cac mamba

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dogfukkers like you always find the need to come in an say some slick shyt about people shytting in the streets

7.5% annual growth rate cac :umad:

you won't be able to live off the achievements of your ancestors for ever cac :umad:
got this fakkit furious :mjlol:
 

Professor Emeritus

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People do work bare minimum to maximize the personal benefit of government subsidy and they do that now in the US with just welfare, that has checks in place,, unlike a UBI, which would be even worse.
Scientific also backs up the basic logical inferences that I've made
http://conference.nber.org/confer/2015/Macro15/Barnichon_Figura.pdf

This is yet another example where you have understood neither the argument I made nor the paper you tried to use to make your own, and as a result ended up in the wrong world completely.

Look at your own link.

Looking across different sub-groups, the decline in the number of nonparticipants who want to work is due mainly to prime-age females, and, to a lesser extent, young individuals. Moreover, the decline is mainly a low-income and non-single household phenomenon, and is stronger for families with children than without.

In other words, almost the entire drop in labor force participation is due to mothers staying home to raise their kids (which is a GOOD thing for society) and younger people taking more time to learn before entering the workforce (which is a GOOD thing for society).

What about men in their prime, the ones you most want to be working? Oh, wait, no problem:

. In particular, since prime-age males have a very high participation rate, there are few prime-age male nonparticipants, so that the decline in mit is a phenomenon that affected only a very small share of the prime-age male population.

Later on they show that some forms of social insurance can reduce desire to work among primary wageearners, but the effects are small. For example, receiving disability reduces workforce participation among those who receive it by 17%. First of all, in an overloaded labor market a small workforce disincentive is GOOD, second of all, that number is among disabled people and certainly wouldn't be as high among the able-bodied, and third, not participating in the paid workforce doesn't mean you aren't volunteering, taking care of family, or other societally useful things.



I'm speaking of reality, so if you think you can counter reality by government program I feel bad for you, because you are going to fail. What you are suggesting isn't something new, entitlements in Rome, England, you don't ease poverty by redistributing the wealth of the productive class. You decrease it by increasing productivity, by increasing markets, and easing regulation and allowing capitalism to thrive. To blame technology for labor shortage is a old school luddite argument that has long been debunked, and a perfect example of debunking it would be Milton Friedman's answer to chinese economist about jobs, you can get more jobs by eliminating ditch diggers and machinary, have people dig with spoons, there will be jobs for days, but would that increase prosperity and economic mobility? No it would simply work people needlessly for minimum wage as possible.

It's like you live in a libertarian-infused academic bubble. The things you say have so little to do with "reality" it's ridiculous.

First off, the greatest gains in poverty reduction in modern American history were in the 1960s, when taxes on the rich were MUCH higher than today, and in the 1990s, when taxes on the rich were raised. Meanwhile, virtually all the recessions have occurred in tax-cutting Republican administrations. Read "Unequal Democracy" and you can see how clear the trends are.

Second, it is ridiculous in this day and age to think that increasing "productivity" and "markets" are goals. We have way MORE shyt than we need, and it isn't making us any more satisfied. There's a massive marketing-induced push to make us buy more than we need, replace everything with new stuff every year, drain resources from every corner of the planet to feed the machine....all the while only because capitalists say GROW GROW GROW.

We already have the capability to make all the stuff the world needs. The ONLY reason the GROW GROW GROW mantra is reproduced is because the wealthy survive off an interest-based system that they wish to remain at the top of forever despite not doing the work, and constant wealth accumulation via interest can only occur if there's constant economic growth based on your debtors' work. So you withhold money, which there is plenty of, in order to create false scarcity and make them work for your profits. It's a completely artificial system that only serves the wealthy, while abusing the poor, destroying the environment, and mortgaging the future. It's basically a giant planet-wide pyramid scheme, because it ONLY works for the wealthy if the interest payments they take from the poor continuously outpace the real wage gains of the poor.

Third, of course technology is responsible for lack of labor demand. That's not Luddite, that should be a GOOD thing. Hunter gatherers and agricultural societies never have serious labor shortages, because everyone only needs to do enough work to support themselves and the rest is leisure. It's only when you use capital accumulation to take away the ability of the average man to support himself, then technology to replace the labor you would need from him, that a labor shortage develops.

A combine does the work of 100 men. A semi truck does the work of 100 men. A computer does the work of 100 men. How will that not create less need for labor? The ONLY way you avoid that is if you create new needs, new products for people to lust after...and while in some cases those might be good things, if the process keeps going on for decades and decades, eventually the new demands will become more and more artificial. Now we pay enormous amounts of money for bottled water, pre-cooked food, childcare, children's games, home entertainment, diet programs, exercise....all stuff that used to be FREE in our parent's generation. But we have to keep expanding market reach more and more until we monetize everything, to feed the useless pyramid scheme.

Of course, the other alternative is to do less market-based work. Stop making useless stuff and paying for stuff we used to do ourselves, only work 15-20 hours a week and spend the rest of the time with family and volunteer work and pursuing self-improvement. We'd be a LOT happier. But the interest-class wouldn't be as dominant off our labor.
 

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Now as a result of money leaving china for cheaper markets, india has become a viable alternative, on top of that outsourcing has sent large swatches of technical and service sector related jobs, it takes time but india experience real wage growth for 2 years straight, does this mean everyone will live happily ever after? No, will the competition tend to drive down wages? Yes, but if open trade occured and you removed regulatory hurdles that cripple the private sector their, legallly, you would probably see more job opportunities open up for those there.

Indian Economy: Population, Facts, GDP, Corruption, Business, Trade, FDI
Heritage foundation review of economic policy and freedom in India point to a very broken system,
You use Heritage as a source. :deadmanny: Literally everything that comes from them is propaganda. Their only reason to exist is propaganda.

Yes, there are broken systems in India.

However, the biggest issues are in the sustainability of the tribal peoples and villagers who comprise 70% of India's population. Do you really want to move all those people to the slums in the cities to find the type of work you are talking about? Check the happiness and satisfaction of a poor person in the village versus a poor person in the city and get back to me.



I would think if you want improvement you would act to actually change the system, not payoff the poor to support it even more with a wealth transfer, that we know will disincentivize work based on its very principle of operation and humans want to get as much for as little work as they can get away with.

Your claim "humans want to get as much for as little work as they can get away with" is probably the single worst assumption of your entire economic school.

How is the majority of the internet reliant on free labor at either the software or content level?

Why is there so much open-source software around?

Why do billions of people worldwide do volunteer work every year?

Why do mothers and fathers go so far above the call of duty to raise their children right?

Why do so many people take good care of their elderly parents?

Why do so many artists and musicians and writers do what they love for nothing or almost nothing?

Why do so many amateur athletes work so hard to improve their craft even when they know they'll never see a real payday?

Why do so many people hunt, fish, grow gardens and trees, run churches, run boy scout troops, and do other "work-like" things in their free time?

Why do rich people who are already set for life keep working?

Why do lottery winners almost always go back to work within a year or two?


In fact, trying to tie it all to money actually disincentives work. It's a long-proven psychological fact that providing a reward for a task focuses the gain on the reward, and disincentives the task itself. Scientific studies have shown that the ONLY tasks for which financial reward is effective in improving actual performance are in rote, mindless, easy tasks.


Take away the total reliance of finance, and you'll have MORE moms staying home to take better care of their kids, MORE families taking in their elderly parents and devoting more time to them, MORE artists and writers and musicians devoting time to their craft, MORE farmers working their family's land, MORE activists fighting for rights and restoring ecosystems. The only thing you'll have less of is mindless machine-like workers doing the mindless work of constant production. And that's the exact work we don't need, partially because machines can do it, and partially because we already produce far too much useless and redundant stuff.





It isn't a lie at all, its documented and I have posted said documentation and research on it. Volunteers volunteer because they have the financial ability to do so, if you need money you dont have the luxury to give your time and labor for free. WE are talking about workers who need to earn, and if you give them an option of getting something for nothing they will do the nothing, espescially if it works out better for them financially to keep their private productivity below a certain rate so they have no tax penalty or lose no money doing the least possible. Just think if I can get a subsidy as long as I make $200 and under a month, if I got a raise to say 250 a month, but that incurred a tax penalty of say 20% why would I ever do more work or even take a job that would increase my skill level to at that rate? I'm incentivized not to, because I do more work for the same amount of money.

Volunteers volunteer because they have the financial ability to do so, so give more people the financial ability to do so and you'll get more volunteers. Can you even read what you're saying - you just made my argument for me!

And again, if the ONLY reason for a worker to incur additional hours is for financial benefit, they'll be a crap worker. Again, THAT is scientifically proved, but that seems to be the kind of science you ignore. I don't want people doing crap tasks for meagre financial rewards anymore, and there's nothing in this globe that needs it except the interest-earning class and the marketers/advertisers who rely on us making and buying stuff we don't need.



A UBI doesn't encourage people to do any of those things, because there is no incentive to better one's self.

No incentive to better oneself? You think the incentive to better oneself comes from capitalism? :heh:

Yeah, tell every housewife in history, "You had no incentive to better yourself, because you knew it wouldn't improve your earning potential, so you're basically a useless human being."

People have their own natural incentive to better themselves. The vast majority of the world's population is either not working, retired, or in a job that ain't ever going to change no matter how they better themselves...and yet they still find the urge to better themselves. It's human nature to want to be a better person. The global focus on profit motive helps to destroy that nature. Move to UBI, and the urge to better oneself will soon become GREATER, not lesser, because it will be pulled away from profit focus.
 

Jhoon

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I think a UBI system would work here in NA though. Doesn't even have to be a lot.

$800 - $1000 month. Stop the raise on min. Wage. UBI + min wage would help a lot of ppl. Plus those on welfare would actually have an incentive to come off.
A lot of things can work anywhere. This country doesn't want to maintain the health of its citizens , adequately fund its educational institutions, but you're telling me they may have it in them to want to pay people just because?

Have you ever met an American?
 

Maschine_Man

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A lot of things can work anywhere. This country doesn't want to maintain the health of its citizens , adequately fund its educational institutions, but you're telling me they may have it in them to want to pay people just because?

Have you ever met an American?
yes, and Americans are extremely selfish individualistic ppl.

however, unlike healthcare(which should be free IMO) and Education(which should also be free) a UBI system will DIRECTLY put money back in to the economy. More money going in to small(and large) business, education, child care, just overall more money going back in to the system.

and unlike welfare(that punishes the ppl that want to work but can't afford to come off welfare) this would AUGMENT, not replace their working income.

it's also better than raising minimum wage that would only help out a few. This would allow ppl to continue working minimum wage jobs (for example) but allow them to live more comfortably until they can find something better, or to even afford night school or correspondence to upgrade skills/education.
while not punishing those that don't need the min. wage, or the businesses forced to pay min. wage
 
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