If I am a product of my surroundings why should I be held accountable for my actions?

Dooby

إن شاء الله
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
8,383
Reputation
-411
Daps
10,406
Basically a more extreme version of determinism.

Well? It is a well known fact one's surroundings greatly influences one's personality/viewpoints/etc. Maybe to the point, that's all it boils down to, one reacting to what society has thrown at them.

Discuss.
 

Dooby

إن شاء الله
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
8,383
Reputation
-411
Daps
10,406
DO YOU HAVE AGENCY, BROTHER?

If all our actions/emotions are chemical reactions within the brain, if one recorded all of the cause/effect to particular situations/chemical reactions, would be the end of free will?

In order for us to have agency, true randomness exists. But that is a highly controversial stance.
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
46,320
Reputation
5,850
Daps
93,964
Reppin
Uncertain grounds
If all our actions/emotions are chemical reactions within the brain, if one recorded all of the cause/effect to particular situations/chemical reactions, would be the end of free will?

In order for us to have agency, true randomness exists. But that is a highly controversial stance.

not all that controversial, depending on the scale you are talking about.

mathematically speaking, humans are statistically insignificant when relative to the universal fabric...even if it was necessary that randomness must exist for us to have agency, an assumption for which im unsure i subscribe to, that randomness would exist on such a minute level universally, that, from another perspective, it would also be statistically insignificant.
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
46,320
Reputation
5,850
Daps
93,964
Reppin
Uncertain grounds
If all our actions/emotions are chemical reactions within the brain, if one recorded all of the cause/effect to particular situations/chemical reactions, would be the end of free will?

In order for us to have agency, true randomness exists. But that is a highly controversial stance.

not all my actions are within the brain either, unless you subscribe to the Godhead concept. but granting that assumption, you could just say that all we are are electronic pulses and transmission of code. enter the matrix, that rabbit hole goes deep though :whoo:
 

Dooby

إن شاء الله
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
8,383
Reputation
-411
Daps
10,406
not all my actions are within the brain either, unless you subscribe to the Godhead concept. but granting that assumption, you could just say that all we are are electronic pulses and transmission of code. enter the matrix, that rabbit hole goes deep though :whoo:

Typo. I meant, our actions come from what occurs within the brain.
 
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
1,757
Reputation
-210
Daps
815
Basically a more extreme version of determinism.

Well? It is a well known fact one's surroundings greatly influences one's personality/viewpoints/etc. Maybe to the point, that's all it boils down to, one reacting to what society has thrown at them.

Discuss.


that's a very interesting question. I wouldn't call it reacting to what society has thrown at them. I think it's more like people behave in predictable ways to environmental stimuli.

It's the same way that dogs or insects behave.


You can't discount genetics either. I'm reluctant to drink a cup of coffee because I am hypersensitive to caffeine. I "choose" not to drink coffee because there are negative consequences to that action--consequences that are the result of the protein sequencing that happened in my mother's womb. These are consequences that others may not have as a result of caffeine consumption. I don't drink coffee, while they do. It gives the illusion of choice in society. But if I didn't have an extremely low caffeine metabolism, would I still hesitate to drink coffee?

Choice is an illusion. Charles Manson's fate was sealed the minute he was conceived. His environment was constructed before he was even born.

Can we really hold people accountable for their actions? In the strictest sense, no. We can't. There are people with schizophrenia or autism who simply can not control their behavior, and they are a danger to society. Likewise, there are people at the opposite end that have extremely non-aggressive temperaments that will never do anything bad in their lives. However, the vast majority of people are easily swayed by temporary circumstances. They steal, kill or rape, when the opportunity arrives, or when the "group" does it, or when the victim is "the enemy". The illusion of accountability has the societal objective of providing a negative consequence to "decision" making. It's an input into the bio-mechanical machines known as human beings. It's an input that makes the bio-machines behave in a certain way.

That is the beauty of religion, especially the Abrahamic Religions. They provide an ultimate negative consequence for undesirable actions. With something like religion, the rat will never eat the cheese even if it is put right in front of him, even if all the those watching the rat were to leave. If the rat truly believes in God and that eating the cheese means life in hell, then the rat will have a slight higher chance of resisting the urge to eat. That is why religion should be never be abandoned by society. It doesn't work on everyone, but I wager that it works on just enough people to make society more civilized.
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
46,320
Reputation
5,850
Daps
93,964
Reppin
Uncertain grounds
What are you trying to get at exactly?

you said actions happen as a product of what occurs in the brain, but it is only assumed that the mind is in the brain. actions are applied thoughts, thoughts come from the mind, evidence pointing to the mind being inside the brain may well just point to the brain being a receiver of these signals from the mind rather than the origin of them. the brain gives matter to these ideas which allow them to be enacted on
 

Dooby

إن شاء الله
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
8,383
Reputation
-411
Daps
10,406
you said actions happen as a product of what occurs in the brain, but it is only assumed that the mind is in the brain. actions are applied thoughts, thoughts come from the mind, evidence pointing to the mind being inside the brain may well just point to the brain being a receiver of these signals from the mind rather than the origin of them. the brain gives matter to these ideas which allow them to be enacted on

This is what I thought the angle you were taking...

Interesting concept. So what do you think happens when we die? Do we ever truly die?

Are you a theist? If so what is your faith?
 

NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
46,320
Reputation
5,850
Daps
93,964
Reppin
Uncertain grounds
This is what I thought the angle you were taking...

Interesting concept. So what do you think happens when we die? Do we ever truly die?

Are you a theist? If so what is your faith?

im still trying to figure the death thing out.

ive been reading a lot of NDE stories to gain insight, if possible, as well as reading more scientific and philosophical concepts.

most suggest that when we die, if our spirit is at rest, then we can go into the 'light' and become 'one' with the source again...but i think its propaganda to buy back into the re-incarnation cycle. im not trying to come back as anything else but myself, if i ever come back at all. id prefer to be a travelling, invisible consciousness. basically my mind, spirit and soul, just without a body, or with the option of manifesting in a body of some sort if necessary to communicate with other beings. i wouldn't want to exist without the ability to communicate. heaven sounds pretty great, but idk if ill make the cut. :dry:

we're technically dying since the moment of our birth..

i was raised jewish and bar mitzvahed, but i never fully bought into the faith, was basically forced to do it against my will. i was agnostic for the longest of times, but life experiences and further analysis lead me to believe that there certainly is a higher power of some sort, or at least was. there is too much order in the universe for it to have occurred via happenstance, but it is impossible to tell whether G-d is still active or if whatever G-d is/was just laid down the framework and formulas then bounced.

i began writing a book a few years back, and got about 30 pages deep in theory. my theory is that our universe began because there was literally nothing in existence, which contradicts logic and is a paradox. nothing can't exist. so then, nothing blew up on itself and started a procession of logical creations. what would you start with when creating a universe? A G-d. The beginning of genesis sort of sums this up, ironically.

the only problem is that, in my theory, logic/code pre-dates our universe. so this means that we are a pocket universe, a parallel universe of some sort, or a universe residing within a black hole.

i believe that our imagination/thoughts power the universe and bring things into existence. this stems logically from the universe being a conscious being as well as the theory that supernatural deities need our worship to attain more power. this brings me with some fear though, because if this is true, then we are also manifesting and creating many negative energies/entities without intention. maybe the devil didn't exist until the humans collectively believed that he did, for example. on the flip side, this could mean that upon death, we determine what happens to us, based on justified true belief. maybe you go where you think youre gonna go, and maybe what happens to you is what you think is gonna happen to you.
 
Top