How the World Runs on Looting the Congo

[Samori Toure]

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

I wouldn't even feel mad if the Congo got a Mao like figure who united the country and kicked out all of the neo-colonialists

 

[FruitOfTheVale]

 

[JahFocus CS]

I wouldn't even feel mad if the Congo got a Mao like figure who united the country and kicked out all of the neo-colonialists

I would rejoice at this

The Congo might be the single place on earth whose people have been catching the most hell for the longest.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

I would rejoice at this

The Congo might be the single place on earth whose people have been catching the most hell for the longest.

A lot of Africa reminds me of pre-Communist China, actually.

Vast areas of rural poverty controlled by evil elites who cooperate with foreign exploiters. Brutal security forces who target youth who desire change...

Mao's policies may have killed 60,000,000 Chinese - but at the end of his life, their country was theirs.

 

[Trajan]

A lot of Africa reminds me of pre-Communist China, actually.

Vast areas of rural poverty controlled by evil elites who cooperate with foreign exploiters. Brutal security forces who target youth who desire change...

Mao's policies may have killed 60,000,000 Chinese - but at the end of his life, their country was theirs.

Bingo. That's what I was getting at in that HL thread on Somalia/Oil. You need a steady hand steering things when you're getting off the ground. That's what the Khaleejis had/have: absolute monarchs. Russia had the Tsars/Lenin/Stalin, Lee Kuan Yew, Park Chung Hee of South Korea. The format tends to be authoritarianism while they modernise and then liberalisation once you're good. Even in the UK real democracy i.e everyone being allowed the vote as well as more liberal policies and govt inclusive of all classes only came along after empire and the industrial revolution.

Democracies (Western style) cause chaos in Africa since it's alien and prone to corruption and exploitation by outsiders. Obviously I'm not advocating for Mugabe style despots but a benevolent dictatorship.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

Bingo. That's what I was getting at in that HL thread on Somalia/Oil. You need a steady hand steering things when you're getting off the ground. That's what the Khaleejis had/have: absolute monarchs. Russia had the Tsars/Lenin/Stalin, Lee Kuan Yew, Park Chung Hee of South Korea. The format tends to be authoritarianism while they modernise and then liberalisation once you're good. Even in the UK real democracy i.e everyone being allowed the vote as well as more liberal policies and govt inclusive of all classes only came along after empire and the industrial revolution.

Democracies (Western style) cause chaos in Africa since it's alien and prone to corruption and exploitation by outsiders. Obviously I'm not advocating for Mugabe style despots but a benevolent dictatorship.

Developmental authoritarianism, to be exact. One example is Meles Zenawi/Hailemariam Desalgn. Or the Communist Party of China. The real secret to the ChiComs success is that they have an ideology (although it looks funny given their capitalism nowadays). Also, a highly bureaucratic party which has differing centres of power.

 

[Trajan]

Developmental authoritarianism, to be exact. One example is Meles Zenawi/Hailemariam Desalgn. Or the Communist Party of China. The real secret to the ChiComs success is that they have an ideology (although it looks funny given their capitalism nowadays). Also, a highly bureaucratic party which has differing centres of power.

Yes!

On paper a lot of countries should be doing better than Ethiopia. They have too many people, landlocked, not major resources IIRC. Yet they're trailblazing because of their governance.

Get a tight grip on the state and have a vision and you're halfway there.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

Adding on, the problem with autocracies (of any kind) is that you have the "Bad Emperor" problem. You might have good dictators. You might have awful dictators. You can't get rid of awful dictators as easily as you could kick a bad politician out of office via election.

China, in a sense, has gotten past this problem by having its position of President based upon internal dynamics within the Communist Party. But, Xi Jingping has been accumulating a lot of power.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

Yes!

On paper a lot of countries should be doing better than Ethiopia. They have too many people, landlocked, not major resources IIRC. Yet they're trailblazing because of their governance.

Get a tight grip on the state and have a vision and you're halfway there.

I think similar good governance can occur within a democracy. You just need an effective bureaucracy, executive branch and security within the economy.

Parliamentary democracies with first past the post elections can do this sort of governance well.

 

[Frangala]

I wouldn't even feel mad if the Congo got a Mao like figure who united the country and kicked out all of the neo-colonialists

They almost did. Laurent Kabila (the father) came into power with that agenda however he made the mistake of coming to power with the help of Rwanda, Uganda however was killed because he wanted to cut them off. Rwandans and Ugandans wanted positions in the Congolese govt. especially among security and intelligence positions in addition to other influential positions in exchange for putting Kabila into power. Kabila, wasn't having it so they murdered him and it doesn't help that genocidal maniacs like Kagame are the poster boy for development (invited in international conference and prestigious institutions of higher education like Harvard, Oxford etc... to talk about governance and development) although there is no dissent in that country and political opponents end up missing/dead and Tutsis are a minority, and he is the US' specifically the Clinton and Obama Administration's favorite due in part also that Kagame has been able to exploit the West's guilty conscience on not intervening during the 1994 genocide.

One positive thing about DRC (a country of 80 million) is that the level of tribalism is very minimal compared to other African countries. You can run into any Congolese, and they speak Kikongo, Tshiluba, Lingala and Swahili (at least two of the four main languages) in addition to French and the country is over 90% Christian. They also intermarry like crazy among the different ethnic groups. There is definitely a sense of nationalism. Congolese are getting even more politically mature as they are beginning to understand that Congo's problems is a problem of occupation and foreign aggression by the East African countries (Uganda and Rwanda) with the help/approval of Western industrialized countries in addition to an extremely corrupt political class willing to sell out their own people for foreign interests. A strong Congo means it's game over for its neighbors whether it be Angola or the aforementioned east African countries and international community.

Etienne Tshisekedi died this past week. Tshisekedi was a staunch political opponent since Mobutu all the way up until last week. His party UDPS is by far the most popular party in DR Congo by a mile and it cuts across all ethnic lines. His party is responsible for Kabila having to rethink changing the constitution by introducing a referendum that would allow to go beyond his term which expired last December. The thing about Tshisekedi and his party is they have never picked up arms and always led a nonviolent movement in a country where power is obtained through the gun as a result he was never able to ascend to power or become president despite being the most popular politician in the country's history outside of Lumumba.

Tshisekedi died in Belgium last week and was responsible for an agreement that would name the Prime Minister from his party and other key cabinet positions from his party while elections will be organized in December of 2017. The enforcement of this agreement could be a game changer for the country. Kabila has lost all legitimacy even the international community is turning on him even though he lost his elections in 2011 against Tshisekedi but due to massive fraud he was able to pull it out while the international community looked the other way. I think a change in the political class and governance definitely will go a long way but then again that's with all of Africa.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

They almost did. Laurent Kabila (the father) came into power with that agenda however he made the mistake of coming to power with the help of Rwanda, Uganda however was killed because he wanted to cut them off. Rwandans and Ugandans wanted positions in the Congolese govt. especially among security and intelligence positions in addition to other influential positions in exchange for putting Kabila into power. Kabila, wasn't having it so they murdered him and it doesn't help that genocidal maniacs like Kagame are the poster boy for development (invited in international conference and prestigious institutions of higher education like Harvard, Oxford etc... to talk about governance and development) although there is no dissent in that country and political opponents end up missing/dead and Tutsis are a minority, and he is the US' specifically the Clinton and Obama Administration's favorite due in part also that Kagame has been able to exploit the West's guilty conscience on not intervening during the 1994 genocide.

One positive thing about DRC (a country of 80 million) is that the level of tribalism is very minimal compared to other African countries. You can run into any Congolese, and they speak Kikongo, Tshiluba, Lingala and Swahili (at least two of the four main languages) in addition to French and the country is over 90% Christian. They also intermarry like crazy among the different ethnic groups. There is definitely a sense of nationalism. Congolese are getting even more politically mature as they are beginning to understand that Congo's problems is a problem of occupation and foreign aggression by the East African countries (Uganda and Rwanda) with the help/approval of Western industrialized countries. A strong Congo means it's game over for its neighbors whether it be Angola or the aforementioned east African countries and international community.

Etienne Tshisekedi died this past week. Tshisekedi was a staunch political opponent since Mobutu all the way up until last week. His party UDPS is by far the most popular party in DR Congo by a mile and it cuts across all ethnic lines. His party is responsible for Kabila having to rethink changing the constitution by introducing a referendum that would allow to go beyond his term which expired last December. The thing about Tshisekedi and his party is they have never picked up arms and always led a nonviolent movement in a country where power is obtained through the gun as a result he was never able to ascend to power or become president despite being the most popular politician in the country's history.

Tshisekedi died in Belgium last week and was responsible for an agreement that would name the Prime Minister from his party and other key cabinet positions from his party while elections will be organized in December of 2017. The enforcement of this agreement could be a game changer for the country. Kabila has lost all legitimacy even the international community is turning on him even though he lost his elections in 2011 against Tshisekedi but due to massive fraud he was able to pull it out while the international community looked the other way. I think a change in the political class and governance definitely will go a long way but then again that's with all of Africa.

Don't get me wrong (I think Kagame is the Devil) but Kabila was corrupt. Che Guevara and other accounts of him during the First Congo War point out his slothness. He was no Mao. Would Mao allow himself to be put into power with Soviet troops marching into Beijing? Probably not.

I have a lot of ideas for the Congo's development and I have high hopes for that country. You just need to get a leader who will do a few things:
- Destroy all rebel groups in the East in a concentrated campaign
- Build the infrastructure to export copper, diamonds and coltan out of Kinshasa instead of Zambia/Rwanda/Uganda
- Begin building the Inga Dam projects
- Set up farming cooperatives, agricultural colleges with the ultimate goal of becoming Africa's food exporter

Anyway, too bad about Tshisekedi. Kabila will find a way to renege on the deal. Rwanda/Uganda will scheme again. The pattern will repeat itself. Zimbabwe is too weak to defend DR Congo. Angola is preoccupied with oil woes.

 

[Frangala]

Don't get me wrong (I think Kagame is the Devil) but Kabila was corrupt. Che Guevara and other accounts of him during the First Congo War point out his slothness. He was no Mao. Would Mao allow himself to be put into power with Soviet troops marching into Beijing? Probably not.

I have a lot of ideas for the Congo's development and I have high hopes for that country. You just need to get a leader who will do a few things:
- Destroy all rebel groups in the East in a concentrated campaign
- Build the infrastructure to export copper, diamonds and coltan out of Kinshasa instead of Zambia/Rwanda/Uganda
- Begin building the Inga Dam projects
- Set up farming cooperatives, agricultural colleges with the ultimate goal of becoming Africa's food exporter

Anyway, too bad about Tshisekedi. Kabila will find a way to renege on the deal. Rwanda/Uganda will scheme again. The pattern will repeat itself. Zimbabwe is too weak to defend DR Congo. Angola is preoccupied with oil woes.

Kabila the elder was indeed corrupt but he started to take the right turn that's why he got taken out. Kabila, the younger, is stuck. He won't find a way to renege despite what he has to lose like I said the population has hit such a low point that they are willing to die because everybody is suffering it's not about ethnic lines or one tribe/ethnic group who is doing better than the other because his/her representatives are in power.

This latest agreement was actually the second agreement. The first agreement was conducted and mediated by the AU however UDPS didn't want to go because they view the AU and Dhamili Zuma of having screwed Tshisekedi in 2011 elections by declaring those elections fair and transparent in addition t the fact that Kabila and Zuma are buddies and Zuma's son has been a rich man by doing business in Congo's mining sector.

The fact that UDPS and the population basically forced Kabila's hand for a second dialogue and a second agreement shows you that there is a good amount of resistance within civil society and the Opposition. Congo is not near the political maturity of West Africa yet but it's getting there. Prior to those two agreements, Kabila and his minions in Parliament were trying to pass a law in 2014 that would require a census before the conduction of elections knowing well that it would take YEARS to properly conduct in a post-conflict country with poor infrastructure . The population marched, 100s of people were killed and it drew bad attention and they scrapped the law. They went to the AU dialogue but the main opposition boycotted and then they finally came to an agreement after the second dialogue. You can clearly see the transition from census law --> 1st dialogue--> 2nd dialogue (no referendum, elections in 2017).

It's funny that you cite Zimbabwe and Angola, they were the primary defenders of Kabila the elder vs. Uganda/Rwanda. They were up until this point defender of Joseph Kabila but Angola sent its diplomats to DR Congo last November basically telling him to honor the agreement of the second dialogue (step down). Although Angola wants a weak Congo to take advantage of and was never a friend of DR Congo since Mobutu supported Savimbi, Angola does not need an unstable Congo because that causes refugee situations. Both of those aforementioned countries are not ready to lend their help to Joseph Kabila anymore. The only remaining ally he has in the region in Zuma but Zuma is too occupied with domestic politics and corruption scandals that he doesn't have time to focus on Congo.

Congolese call their country "scandale geologique" (geological scandal) there is literally EVERYTHING there in terms of resources, topography, vegetation and weather and it even snows in some parts of the northeast part of th country North Kivu specifically. Just some good patriotic competent politicians, this country has the potential to become unrivaled in the whole continent.

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

Kabila the elder was indeed corrupt but he started to take the right turn that's why he got taken out. Kabila, the younger, is stuck. He won't find a way to renege despite what he has to lose like I said the population has hit such a low point that they are willing to die because everybody is suffering it's not about ethnic lines or one tribe/ethnic group who is doing better than the other because his/her representatives are in power.

This latest agreement was actually the second agreement. The first agreement was conducted and mediated by the AU however UDPS didn't want to go because they view the AU and Dhamili Zuma of having screwed Tshisekedi in 2011 elections by declaring those elections fair and transparent in addition t the fact that Kabila and Zuma are buddies and Zuma's son has been a rich man by doing business in Congo's mining sector.

The fact that UDPS and the population basically forced Kabila's hand for a second dialogue and a second agreement shows you that there is a good amount of resistance within civil society and the Opposition. Congo is not near the political maturity of West Africa yet but it's getting there. Prior to those two agreements, Kabila and his minions in Parliament were trying to pass a law in 2014 that would require a census before the conduction of elections knowing well that it would take YEARS to properly conduct in a post-conflict country with poor infrastructure . The population marched, 100s of people were killed and it drew bad attention and they scrapped the law. They went to the AU dialogue but the main opposition boycotted and then they finally came to an agreement after the second dialogue. You can clearly see the transition from census law --> 1st dialogue--> 2nd dialogue (no referendum, elections in 2017).

It's funny that you cite Zimbabwe and Angola, they were the primary defenders of Kabila the elder vs. Uganda/Rwanda. They were up until this point defender of Joseph Kabila but Angola sent its diplomats to DR Congo last November basically telling him to honor the agreement of the second dialogue (step down). Although Angola wants a weak Congo to take advantage of and was never a friend of DR Congo since Mobutu supported Savimbi, Angola does not need an unstable Congo because that causes refugee situations. Both of those aforementioned countries are not ready to lend their help to Joseph Kabila anymore. The only remaining ally he has in the region in Zuma but Zuma is too occupied with domestic politics and corruption scandals that he doesn't have time to focus on Congo.

Congolese call their country "scandale geologique" (geological scandal) there is literally EVERYTHING there in terms of resources, topography, vegetation and weather and it even snows in some parts of the northeast part of th country North Kivu specifically. Just some good patriotic competent politicians, this country has the potential to become unrivaled in the whole continent.

That's what Rwanda, Uganda and Angola fear. A powerful Congo.

Kabila's end-game may not be to control his tentacle empire of business operations in the DR Congo. A deal has to be struck which will allow him and his decrepit family to keep some portion of it. After it is struck, you take it away from them when they least expect it.

 

[Frangala]

That's what Rwanda, Uganda and Angola fear. A powerful Congo.

Kabila's end-game may not be to control his tentacle empire of business operations in the DR Congo. A deal has to be struck which will allow him and his decrepit family to keep some portion of it. After it is struck, you take it away from them when they least expect it.

He is definitely under pressure, dude has gained tons of weights bags under his eyes and is stressed like hell.

Rarely does a death of a good honorable person a good thing but I think with Tshisekedi's death may be a blessing in disguise. They see that second dialogue his last attempt to have a peaceful transition of power/alternance in Congo and a lot of people on the ground will see as a waste of his legacy if it is not enforced hence the Opposition is starting to become stronger than ever and people are on full alert.