How An African Empire Influenced African-American Roast Sessions

[get these nets]

There are several ethnic groups that now play the Blues, but that does not mean that the Blues did not start in Mali. There are several ethnic groups that not cook Jollof Rice, but that does not mean that Jollof Rice is not from the Jollof (Wolof) people of Senegal. The dozens are originally from the Mande people and just because other groups now does it that does not mean that it is not from Mali.

Another thing that you need to understand is that you are listing modern Countries like Nigeria. The Mande spread out all over West Africa after Mali went into decline. So those Nigerians were likely introduced to the dozens by the Mande people that moved into their region. It long known that the Hausa were long distance traders into Mali. So they would have definitely been introduced to the dozens by the Mandingos, which was an essential element to doing business deals with the Mande.

Anthropologists have noted the existence of joking relationships in societies in different parts of the world. In fact, some of the anthropologists cited in the books I mentioned, were among the first to study and compare and contrasts the joking relationships across Africa to the ones from other cultures and continents. These relationships between families, clans, tribes, and across to different tribes/groups would seem to be natural developments & evolutions of societies. They are documented to exist in different forms among groups in West, Central, Southern, and East Africa.
I posted segments specifically about West Africans societies because of the OP topic. I'm going to have to reject the idea that the various West African forms of joking relationships didn't exist before contact with Mande people.
The Sanankuya stands out because it was codified when the original Mali constitution was transcribed into Western languages. To believe that Mande influence created or helped shape the joking relationship traditions across West African societies/tribes, we would have to do the following

• Ignore the documented differences in form and function between sanankuya and the other West African J.R. traditions
  
• Ignore whether these other groups follow patrilineal or matrilineal kinship and how that and other factors would determine the evolution of their J.R. traditions
• Believe that after the decline of Mali, that singular or groups of Mande soldiers traveled across West Africa and influenced internal society/tribe politics of MULTIPLE outside groups to the extent that it affected their personal interactions among their kin, clan,and rival groups
• Ignore that joking relationship forms are documented to exist independently in regions of Africa outside the territory of the Mali empire, or of post empire trading routes

The man in the OP video stated his opinion. The facts do not support what he said. He took the evidence of Sanankuya being in the traditional oral constitution of Mali 800 years ago, and he extrapolated that to make unfounded claims. Had he done the research, he would have run across the works of anthropologists, folklorists, and historians who have studied these things for decades. He certainly would have run across Mel Watkins' articles and books about the history of African American humor.

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In the spoiler , for whoever wants to read it.
1.Chapter from 1940 edition of the Journal of the International African Institute titled "Joking Relationships" which mentions and lists existing traditions across Africa and compares and contrasts them to traditions from other parts of the world .

Spoiler

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Here's a video of a DOS visiting Senegal. He compares the roasting in his family and Senegalese people at 4:20

 

[IllmaticDelta]

You know damn well that's not the same as getting roasted by your age peers on the schoolyard

....that's not what Im saying. Im saying if they did a style of "roasting" in their culture they should've been able to identify the "cracks-snaps" they were receiving as something similar. If not, it was because the nature/style was different.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

....that's not what Im saying. Im saying if they did a style of "roasting" in their culture they should've been able to identify the "cracks-snaps" they were receiving as something similar. If not, it was because the nature/style was different.

And what I'm saying is that Africans growing up outside of Africa don't get to experience African culture in its globality, whether or not their family comes from Africa. Thus why you have many Africans who do not relate with Africans born elsewhere and consider them westernized/out of touch with their roots. Thus why Africans growing up abroad experience a culture shock when they lay foot for the first time on the continent.

So no, they would not know how Africans crack and snap at each other in their playgrounds. You overestimate the cultural bagage conserved from migration IMHO.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

And what I'm saying is that Africans growing up outside of Africa don't get to experience African culture in its globality, whether or not their family comes from Africa. Thus why you have many Africans who do not relate with Africans born elsewhere and consider them westernized/out of touch with their roots. Thus why Africans growing up abroad experience a culture shock when they lay foot for the first time on the continent.

So no, they would not know how Africans crack and snap at each other in their playgrounds. You overestimate the cultural bagage conserved from migration IMHO.

while this is often true, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't retain small things such as jokes/banter, especially ones that claim to grow up in trad african households

 

[MischievousMonkey]

while this is often true, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't retain small things such as jokes/banter, especially ones that claim to grow up in trad african households

Well that's where the age factor comes into play. Roasting is first experienced during the formative years at the schoolyard and during activities with your age peers. They didn't get that so not a lot to retain.

They might claim they come from a traditional African household, that doesn't mean they got to experience a traditional African experience.

Plus if the subject matter of the roasting you're describing was about them being African, they have even less to link it to since their parents/uncles probably won't ever roast them about that. That's the foreigner factor.

Btw, I'm not arguing that roasting in Africa is the same or is the originator of roasting anywhere else. I'm just disputing the hypothesis that the case of children of African immigrants can be used to prove differences between roasting styles.

 

[Ake1725]

Well that's where the age factor comes into play. Roasting is first experienced during the formative years at the schoolyard and during activities with your age peers. They didn't get that so not a lot to retain.

They might claim they come from a traditional African household, that doesn't mean they got to experience a traditional African experience.

Plus if the subject matter of the roasting you're describing was about them being African, they have even less to link it to since their parents/uncles probably won't ever roast them about that. That's the foreigner factor.

Btw, I'm not arguing that roasting in Africa is the same or is the originator of roasting anywhere else. I'm just disputing the hypothesis that the case of children of African immigrants can be used to prove differences between roasting styles.

At least in my family roasting was 1st experienced from my parents and other family members before my peers. This my be a difference in culture in AA and African/Caribbean people.

 

[Swahili P'Bitek]

A lot of African tribes play what is referred to as the dozens, from west, central, east and southern Africa.In urban areas where youths of various tribes meet, the game is much more creative and less restrained though than in rural areas.

 

[Premeditated]

I would say every culture has some form of "roasting" but the style we know as the Dozens from american pop culture has a distinct Afram nature. The reason I say this is because when you hear many stories from foreign blacks describing being teased by aframs in their youth, they almost never realize/put into context that they were just going through a dozens session. You know how many times on this site that aframs had to explain that many of the jokes foreign blacks heard are the same jokes that many other aframs received (from other aframs), too?

more on the afram nature of the dozens

H Rap Brown really hits on it

meh...I say it's have more to do with miscommunication. They speak english in west African countries, but Ghanaian, Sierra Leonian english and Nigerian pidgin are different from each other but compared that to ebonics/aave. different universe, now you bring roasting into it. Alot of the pop cultural references from AAs wouldn't be understood from an immigrant african. So in their head they're thinking, "i duunt no dees mahn, waa izzheet calling me dat name? waa iday laughin"

 

[get these nets]

A lot of African tribes play what is referred to as the dozens, from west, central, east and southern Africa.In urban areas where youths of various tribes meet, the game is much more creative and less restrained though than in rural areas.

I see that you list your location as Kenya. What are the modern terms for this kind of joking in your region? Books and articles listed some of the old terms..and wanted to know if the names have changed.

 

[get these nets]

And what I'm saying is that Africans growing up outside of Africa don't get to experience African culture in its globality, whether or not their family comes from Africa. Thus why you have many Africans who do not relate with Africans born elsewhere and consider them westernized/out of touch with their roots. Thus why Africans growing up abroad experience a culture shock when they lay foot for the first time on the continent.

So no, they would not know how Africans crack and snap at each other in their playgrounds. You overestimate the cultural bagage conserved from migration IMHO.

Yes, the thread is about the joking systems AND the relationships which permit this kind of joking. Relationships between kin,clan,ethnic group, or between ethnic groups which give one or both parties the greenlight to go in.
If you don't know me like that, it's not the same thing

 

[Cadillac]

I would say every culture has some form of "roasting" but the style we know as the Dozens from american pop culture has a distinct Afram nature. The reason I say this is because when you hear many stories from foreign blacks describing being teased by aframs in their youth, they almost never realize/put into context that they were just going through a dozens session. You know how many times on this site that aframs had to explain that many of the jokes foreign blacks heard are the same jokes that many other aframs received (from other aframs), too?

more on the afram nature of the dozens

H Rap Brown really hits on it

yeah theres def a distinct nature to it, roasting is a little no hold barred(Altho there is no hostility, but sometimes there can lol) plus any feature, fact, etc about you will be used. Including your skin color,race, etc. Some nikkas will just complete makeup something about you

 

[Swahili P'Bitek]

I see that you list your location as Kenya. What are the modern terms for this kind of joking in your region? Books and articles listed some of the old terms..and wanted to know if the names have changed.

The name 'mchongoano' which is the original name of the game is still retained.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Well that's where the age factor comes into play. Roasting is first experienced during the formative years at the schoolyard and during activities with your age peers. They didn't get that so not a lot to retain.

They might claim they come from a traditional African household, that doesn't mean they got to experience a traditional African experience.

Plus if the subject matter of the roasting you're describing was about them being African, they have even less to link it to since their parents/uncles probably won't ever roast them about that. That's the foreigner factor.

Btw, I'm not arguing that roasting in Africa is the same or is the originator of roasting anywhere else. I'm just disputing the hypothesis that the case of children of African immigrants can be used to prove differences between roasting styles.

many of the jokes or "cracks" Im thinking of aren't african specific

yeah theres def a distinct nature to it, roasting is a little no hold barred(Altho there is no hostility, but sometimes there can lol) plus any feature, fact, etc about you will be used. Including your skin color,race, etc. Some nikkas will just complete makeup something about you

facts

 

[get these nets]

The name 'mchongoano' which is the original name of the game is still retained.

Does the term egosori mean the same thing?