Great read: former professional/sparring partner talks about which Heavyweights hit the hardest

[King P]

Found this on another forum and I enjoyed reading this, so I thought I'd share it to. It's a long read, but a very good one. (I broke it up into 3 different posts) The guy (named Evolution, who chooses to remain anonymous online) talks about his time sparring and other interactions with legends, who hit the hardest, who was the best, who would beat who, etc. Same if these had me surprised, others not so much.

Hello everyone. I'm a friend of AJ's from another forum. I used to box professionally from time to time, but nowadays I still spar. I've sparred with many legends. AJ asked to me describe what it is like to be in the ring with them and gauge their punching power. I will not reveal my name for personal reasons, but under anoymousity I feel a bit safer. If you want to know my identity send me an email, but I doubt you've heard of me anyway. I only had three professional fights.

I fought Lennox Lewis and Riddikk Bowe as an amateur.

Riddikks power wasnt memorable to me. It probably got better as he got older, cause he never even remotely buzzed me in either of our contests.

Lennox hit like a fu*king tank. He cowed me; I won the first round, and he literally broke my spirit and took my soul with a right uppercut and straight right hand in the 2nd. I tried to stay away, and forgot to punch. He never got me quite as good again, but I will never forget those two punches. When we sparred years later, he hit very hard. Distinctly unpleasant to be hit by the man.

David Tua was unpleasant. I can't see myself getting stopped by him early, as he never really staggers me, but every shot hurt, and he'd bang. Every other guy I ever sparred would box when I got aggressive, but David would stand his ground and give. I'd get these horrible headaches after sparring with him, and Dave told me once that whenever he knew I was on the dance card, he'd drink extra water for his brain. Nice guy. Hit like a wrecking ball. David Tua hit hard enough to knock my headgear clean around my face. Dude had a pretty limited style, but that left was quick as a cobra when he was sharp, and boy did it have bite. Having sparred them both, Wladimir would school Tua and probably turn out his lights. He just lacks almost any sort of refinement to his violence. Granted, I don't really either unless I'm really, really on that day, but the best heavyweights I've sparred handled me a lot easier than David did.
Feels kinda bad critiquing the dude, though. He's a fun guy, super hospitable and friendly, hit like a truck and put me through plenty of painful paces. I only hope our careers and lives don't end up with me required to face him with 12's and no mask. I can't afford the surgery.

Evander Holyfield was a machine gun. He put me on my butt first round we ever sparred with a 7 or 8 punch volley. He just punched well; He'd move around and when he let them go, they hit, hard and fast and in large numbers. He was the weakest of the group since Bowe, but probably the most dangerous. He never found me difficult to find, and turned me into a bobble head more than once.

George Foreman was tricky. His jab was absolutely numbing-Ive never felt a jab like that, where your whole face would feel like it got novacained after he hit you with it. He'd also throw light punches primarily, almost pitty pat, till he had the opening, and then he'd wallop you. His punches had the most force; They didn't hurt any worse than Tua or Lewis, but I remember how badly they'd screw with my balance. His shots moved me. He also broke my nose with a straight right.

Wladimir Klitschko hit me by far the hardest, though. I couldn't get past the jab, and his right hands hit like thunder. They reminded me of Lewis', but they were quicker and sharper. Wladimir staggered me regularly in sparring. There are literally whole rounds I don't remember. He also knocked me out with a left hook. Not down, out. Only time in my life I've seen canvas and not been able to stand up by 10 seconds

Did you spar with anyone else?
I've sparred with a few middleweights here and there, and I got it on with Buster Douglas and Bert Cooper in sparring sessions too.

How would you rate your chin? It sounds like you have a great beard.
I think I have a good chin. I've only been knocked out once and that was by Wlad. I've been staggered and hurt plenty of times. I've been dropped a few times too but only KO'd once.

I've always wanted to talk to a first hand victim of George Foreman's power. Thank you for sharing.
However I still think David Tua's power is overrated to a degree. What big names with good chins has he knocked out?
@Urban Legend: No sir!! David Tua's punching power is not overrated. I can attest to that. He and George Foreman have a similar feel but Big George is a much better fighter.

 

[King P]

I got an email asking if I ever sparred with Mike Tyson. My run-ins with Mike were not good.

Me and Mike grew up in the same neighborhood for quite awhile before I moved to PA permanently(Not just summers).

Never was a very nice guy, but he was better in the teen form. We built a bit of a rapport(NY boxers) and had some jokes. I would even call us friendly.

I encountered him later in the aftermath of the Holyfield rematch. I asked him "How are you doing champ?" It did not go well. He and his, I guess you would call them posse, berated me for even having the balls to talk to him. I informed him of my identity, in case he didn't know. He asked me, rather sternly and with many curses, not to pretend I knew him.

He seems more calm and mellow lately, and I'm sure the days following his DQ loss weren't pleasant for him, but its about as aggressive and rude as a man has ever been to my face, and my opinions of him are, by extension, a little bit jaded.

Tell me what it was like sparring with Buster Douglas and Bert Cooper. And what is your style like in the ring?
Buster Douglas was lazy. I used to do really well against him. I was shocked when he knocked out Mike Tyson, as was the rest of the world. He was moving good, throwing double jabs and throwing some solid combinations and big punches. I didn't know he had it in him!!! He was not the same guy I used to beat up in the gym everyday.

I met Joe Frazier when he was an older gentleman, so naturally I never sparred with him. But I could tell that he trained Smokin' Bert Cooper. Bert stayed on me and didn't give me any chance to compose myself. Unlike prime Frazier he threw right hands, too. He hit hard. He routinely knocked out his sparring partners and I was one of the few to never get knocked out by him, although he put me on the canvas twice. Of course Bert was not as good as Joe Frazier (not even close) but fighting him was a mere hint of what I imagine it would be like to fight Smokin' Joe--the constant pressure, body shots, huge power, etc.

My style? I'm about six feet, four inches. 230 pounds. I try to cut the ring and land my right hand, working behind the jab. People have said I look like a big, slow Shannon Briggs, but unlike Shannon, I generally don't get aggressive until I have my man hurt.

Interesting. So you survived David Tua's left hook hundreds of times, but Bert Cooper flowed you? Did he punch as hard as Tua?
They had similar power. If anything David had a small edge but either man could crush you with one shot. I used to spar with Bert in the late 80s. Back then my chin wasn't as strong as it is now. Sparring partners develop good beards because they get beat up all the time. Your body gets used to it.

By the time I started sparring with David he was rough around the edges, and I had grown used to taking punishment. So I could withstand his punches but man they hurt. Every last one of them.

Out of all the men you sparred with, who was the toughest? Who would you say was the best? And who, in your opinion, is the greatest of all time?
These are some great questions.

The toughest: Either Wladimir or Evander Holyfield. Wlad hurt me with every punch and I could never get anything going. He's the only man to knock me out. I'll never forget that left hook. Lennox had a great left hook too but chose to throw it in combinations. Wlad would crack you with it without warning.

Evander Holyfield is tough enough to beat anyone. He counters every mistake you make and always hits you off balance or with a string of effective shots at once. He recovers really quickly too. Evander was tough and full of surprises. He's one of the best fighters of all time and I felt that just from sparring with him.

The Best?: That is hard to say. I will say that Lennox Lewis deserves his praise as one of the greatest of all time. He could crack you with either hand and break your confidence. He had such long reach that we spent entire rounds where I couldn't get near enough to land a finger on him but he was comfortably plugging me with his jab from what felt like across the ring. I could rarely get close enough to land anything on Lennox and when I did he would crack me with that uppercut. He was dangerous to fight and could do it all. Brawl, slug, box, counter, everything. Lennox, Wlad and Holyfield are the best I fought but old George Foreman was a terror, too. So was Bert Cooper when he kept his head on straight.

Greatest of All time?: Muhammad Ali from the things I've heard and seen. Joe Frazier and Joe Louis were terrific fighters as well. I'd have to throw Lennox and Evander into my top ten as well. Wlad is good but I think other heavyweights would toy with him.

Prime Tyson and Prime Holyfield? I think Evander had Mike Tyson's number. I never sparred with Mike, and I might be a bit biased because he was an as*hole to me but Evander knew how to deal with Mike's style. Evander used to regularly spar with men like David Tua and Gary Bell, both men who were clones of Mike Tyson. Evander also conquered Ray Mercer, another Tyson-esque heavyweight. There isn't a style around that Evander Holyfield couldn't adapt to and beat.

Wow. I would have never have thought that Wladimir Klitschko hit harder than David Tua and George Foreman.
Yes, Wlad could crack. Hard. With men like George Foreman and David Tua it was more of the force of the punch than the punch itself. Their punches have a similar feel. To be fair I regularly sparred with the old versions of both but old George was tons better than old Tua: George had better ring generalship, a powerful jab and set you up with combinations or for a big knockout shot. David Tua was predictable and easy to figure out but can knock out anyone. I feel bad for critiquing David because he's such a nice man. A real teddy bear.

"It's funny. I used to talk to Eddie Futch about this very fantasy fight. Joe Frazier always believed he would knock out Mike Tyson." I've quoted this from another thread. What did Eddie Futch and Joe Frazier say about a fight between Joe and Tyson?
Eddie didn't jump on the Mike Tyson bandwagon. He told me once that Tyson beat scared men like Michael Spinks and Tyrell Biggs and had a hard time with Larry Holmes and Pinklon Thomas when they were past it. Seeing him lose to Buster Douglas and Evander Holyfield made Tyson look like a fraud. He died in 2001 but picked Lennox Lewis to knock out Mike Tyson in 2002. He picked Joe Frazier to destroy "Iron" Mike Tyson. Joe Frazier was a born warrior who loved combat. Eddie (and many others) felt that Mike was not.

You said once that you sparred with Holyfield in the early 90s and in the late 90s after the Tyson rematch. You told me once that he used you to prepare for his title unification bouts with Lennox Lewis. Talk to us about those sparring sessions and your reaction to the controversial "draw" and the exciting rematch.
Yes. I'm 6'4 and a half. Not as tall as Lennox but similar in size and range. Evander used me and a few other tall fighters who could mimic Lennox's style. Evander was very sharp when I worked with him but I had to leave camp early because my daughter was being born. When I was there Evander beat me up like he usually did but I heard from some others that in the months after I left Evander was complaining of cramps and arthritis. He was 36 years old and it seemed that his age was beginning to show. The closer to the fight, the worse it got.

He was unusually arrogant in the weeks before the fight saying he would KO Lennox in the 3rd round. That was out of character for him but he told me later that Lennox made him really mad because he called him a hypocrit for being a christian but having so many children out of wedlock. That is one of Evander's buttons right there.

I watched the fight on TV and Evander did not look good.Evander looked stiff and slow in the first two rounds but he plays possom a lot. I figured he gave away the first two rounds to conserve energy and murder Lennox in the third. He failed to do it and Lennox controlled the rest of the fight with ease. He accidentally stunned Evander in the 5th with a punch to the back of the head but didn't finish him fearing Evander was setting him up for a trap as he had with Michael Moorer two years prior. As I watched the fight progress it was clear that Evander was over the hill. He didn't have the speed to get to Lennox and couldn't get around Lennox's long jab and reach.

I was pissed off when the fight was a draw but Evander was promoted by Don King. Go figure. The only person on the air who came out and said the obvious was Roy Jones Jr. This was Don's second time screwing Lennox Lewis because he hired a fake referree to help Oliver McCall steal the title from Lennox in 1994.

I didn't work with Evander for the Lennox rematch but from what others told me, Evander was losing his skills. They planned to drain Lennox's strength by jabbing him in the body. I watched the fight and the strategy worked. Evander couldn't fight with Lennox all three minutes of each round so he had to dive in, attack and then escape. Evander turned it into a WAR! Having shared the ring with both, prime Evander would beat prime Lennox. Watch the rematch and see old Evander take it to prime Lennox. Lennox was huffing and puffing and hated those body attacks. He barely made it out alive! Prime Evander would have been busier and got the knockout.

The rematch was close but I think Lennox still won it because he landed more punches.

That's real talk. Holyfield really fattened himself up for kill by wearing his religion on his sleeve. I'm not judging him by no means but 9 illegitimate kids? You have nothing to say to anyone about being a Christian. And now sadly it's backfired. People really believed he was true about his faith. But now that it's come to fruition that he had all these kids by various women , the industry has turned their back on him. It's just don't wear it on your sleeve if you struggle with something.
That's a good point but Evander is a good man. You have to get to know the guy. Everyone has an addiction and women happen to be his. The industry did not turn their back on Evander because of his "religious hypocrisy" but rather because they were using him to get back at Mike Tyson. Evander was the wholesome clean christian guy full of Bible scriptures while Mike Tyson was a thug accused of rape. Good versus evil. People wanted to see Evander punish Mike Tyson. After the Tyson fights were over, Evander's popularity began to wane. The media sensationalized his victories over Mike Tyson. After that was over, he had nothing left to offer.

All of Evander's "Jesus" talk is forgotten the minute a woman who isn't his wife drops her panties.
Evander is a good man. I doubt any of you know him personally like I do. You go by what you see on TV and on the internet.

I lost a close relative of mine a while back and it was Evander that helped me through it. His brother had died around the same time and Evander showed me some scriptures that helped me feel better. He gave me a whole new way of looking at things.

Evander was screwed out of winning the gold medal at the Olympics in 1984 against Kevin Barry. Did he whine? No. He prayed about it and moved on. When Mike Tyson bit Evander's ear, Evander remained calm and prayed about the situation.

Don't talk about Evander that way. He's a class act.

 

[King P]

What is Lennox Lewis like? Is he always laid back and british the way we see him in interviews and such? You said in one thread that you met Joe Frazier. Did you tell you how much he hated Muhammad Ali?

What you see is what you get but he's more in touch with his Jamaican side away from media. He and his family (his mother and brother) were speaking that island talk when I'd spar with him. He talks better with the British accent. His Jamacian accent is quite thick.

I've seen some people say that Lennox was gay but that isn't true. In fact I met a girlfriend of his at our amateur fight. She was an attractive woman. He's a family man now and people still think he was gay. Lennox is a friend of mine and I feel compelled to clear this up.

Joe Frazier always struggled with his feelings regarding Muhammad Ali. Some days he forgave him and said nice things. Other days he was the opposite. Regardless those emotional wounds that Ali opened on him never healed.

the klitskos are cheese champions did the 40 year old vitali retire yet thats how much i follow the bum your lucky you didnt get hit by foreman frazier louis liston marciano you might not be here today
You obviously didn't read the entire post. I sparred with George Foreman for years. He hit like a truck. When he laid into a punch it hurt. Sometimes he hit me so hard I went numb.

As for Frazier, I sparred with Bert Cooper when Joe was training him. Occasionally I stepped in the ring with Joe and discovered (unpleasantly) that he could still bang with that left hook. He was in his late 40s but had a unrelenting attack. I can't imagine fighting him in his prime. He was knocking me around as an old man!

Say rookie, who hit harder between Tua and Foreman?
I'm no rookie, I assure you.

There was a similar feel being on the recieving end of Dave and George's punches. They're both strong--the force from the blow pushes you back. I can't really say who hit harder overall but George had the harder jab.

Remember that I sparred with both when they were past their best.

between Wladimir, Lennox and George who was the toughest to spar with?
Good question. I must say that Lennox Lewis is an absolute killer. He's good, he's long, he's strong, he hits hard, and he'll get in your sh*t and dig through to daylight. Poised, athletic, and confident. He punched in combination, worked off an effective jab, and he was so sneaky with his uppercuts. It was just hard to keep him off you, or off balance. I'd have to say Lennox was the best. He took me places nobody else ever has, and he's the puzzle I could never solve all that well. He could be countered...And my left hook was always effective for that. But the more I looked for it, the more rights over the top came back. Hell.

George was slow. He was strong as a mule, he hit hard, amazing jab, but he had one gear. Damn near impossible to back up, but he'd follow you. That was the ticket to beating him; Get off target, move, and box.

Wlad hits so hard. Amazing jab. Great boxer. But he doesn't work on the inside, he holds, and he rarely hammers the body. More infuriating to fight then flat out difficult, and I think that is sorta the trap he springs; He could knock out anything human with that right hand, and the left hook isn't fun either. He also hangs on the back of your head with his left hand when you get low...He can straight up throw you with one hand. Maddening.

I got an email asking me who hit harder between Muhammad Ali and Evander Holyfield. I never fought Muhammad obviously but I sparred with George Foreman who fought both men. I remember him telling me that Holyfield and Ali had similar power but Evander threw stronger punches. I can attest to that from my sparring sessions with Evander.

Evander gets in your face with those short hooks and uppercuts while Muhammad flurried from the distance or poked at you with his jab. Distance shots don't hurt half as much as those compact blows up close.

Evander fought like a mean guy. I never sparred with Dempsey but I imagine they had similar power; small guys that know how to punch properly and deliver strong punches in large numbers.

I know you never sparred Mike Tyson. But you would probably know this better than most of us since you sparred with people like George Foreman and others and have credible boxing experience. Do you think George Foreman could have beat Mike Tyson? I feel as if 1973 Prime George Foreman definitely could. But do you think late 80's/early 90's George could have beat him? There's debate about it all over the net. I think George could have but I don't have the experience you have to gauge this. I also hear Tyson fans say that Tyson hit harder than Foreman, I definitely don't buy that! Even though you never sparred Mike Tyson, what you think about all this?
Prime Tyson would have KO'd old George in my opinion. When a fan asked George on Twitter about facing Tyson and George says he glad the fight never happened and that "the boy could punch."

Mike was in jail when I used to work with George. We didn't talk about him much but to be honest George only called out Mike because Mike was the champion. When Michael Moorer and Evander Holyfield were the champion he called them out also. But in my honest opinion old George would be KO'd by young Tyson and I'm glad that fight never happened.

As for power, its a tough thing to gauge because people hit differently. I never sparred with George when he was young and he was a different kind of puncher when he returned to boxing. He'd throw pitty pat punches to lure you into an exchange or close enough for him to knock you dead. His jab alone would knock you across the ring when he laid into it.

Tyson was sharper, quicker, more explosive, had the proper shoulder snap and all that. Tyson, Lennox, Wladimir; these are guys that hit you and you're suddenly unconscious. You see a flash of white and then find yourself waking up on the ground or out on your feet.

But for George it was pure, unadulterated power. He never knocked me down but he's got the type of power that when he hits you, you go numb and all of a sudden the ground catches up to you. For Tyson its the snap, strength, speed and accuracy that gets you. For Foreman, its massive force. Two different kinds of power. George hurt like hell when he was an old man so I shudder to think how hard he hit in his 20s.

Did you ever spar with any other ex-champs? Larry Holmes, for instance (or Witherspoon, Tubbs, Dokes, Weaver, Tate, Page, etc.)? And did you ever see your guys spar with other champions? For example, would Lennox Lewis spar with Razor Ruddock (I know Holmes used to spar with him), or would Holyfield spar with Bonecrusher Smith, etc.? Any comments on some of the brawls you've seen at their camps?
I never sparred with Larry or any of the other ex-champions you mentioned. Lennox Lewis used to spar with John Ruiz, who much later became heavyweight champion. But those camps were boring. All John did was hold and run. With Lennox so big and John so small and constantly running it looked like Big Bird chasing a chicken. It was frustrating and only a matter of time before Emanuel Steward said "Get this guy outta here." But of course back then no one could have predicted that John Ruiz would one day become world heavyweight champion.

I don't know if you've heard of Cisse Salif but he was one of the most popular sparring partners in the business. He used to spar with Lewis sometimes when I did and I've seen him spar with Mike Tyson.

I think the term "fighting partner" is more correct. Tyson went all out as if it were a real fight.
And thats something I don't teach at my gym. I never agreed with a lot of Cus' teachings.

Sparring is done to prepare you for a certain opponent and test out different strategies and gameplans. If you go all out while sparring you could get hurt (which would result in a delay of the fight) or you could peak early. That's what happened to Joe Louis before he fought Max Schmeling the first time. If you peak at camp, you won't do well in the fight. You'll get winded early.

I understand Cus wanted his fighters to be entertaining. It was a hell of a show watching Kid Dynamite train. He usually knocked out one or two men a day in camp. I just disagree with turning the volume all the way up at camp. But Cus trained three world champions and I've trained none. So he must have been doing something right.

But sometimes naturally the volume turns up anyway. Some of the best fights I've seen happened in the gym. I got a little ahead of myself sparring with Wladimir Klitschko once and got knocked out for my troubles.

I love your unique insight as a sparring partner concerning the greats.My question is,in your opinion,was being short a large factor(if any) in David Tua,Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris,Darnell "ding a ling" Wilson, Garing Lane or Lionel Butler not being more successful(or even champions)? I like the short powerful, aggressive fighters
Being short had nothing to do with it. Dave lacked motivation at times. Bert was a drug addict who could not control his demons. Orlin, Darnell, Garing and Lionel just lacked the talent to make it to the championship level in my opinion. Bert and Dave could have been heavyweight champions if they wanted it bad enough.

I sparred with Mike Tyson for a few weeks in early 1986. I was 28, he was 18. The kid came to fight! Each and every damn day. I used to go to bed with headaches and bruised ribs more often than I care to remember. I'd go home to my wife with black eyes, bruised ribs, etc and she'd say "A kid did all this to you???!!" And I was like "He don't punch like no damn kid!!" One time Mike broke my nose. He's one of the hardest punchers I've ever trained with. I worked with James 'Bonecrusher' Smith too and he hit a little harder than Mike but Mike landed those bonecrushers far more often than James would. Every punch hurt. The money was real good, a couple hundred a week, but it's not worth it to come home to your wife and kids and they don't recognize you and you're always sore and in constant throbbing pain all over your body. I see Evolution is a mysterious cat but I'm not. The name's Steve Russell. Get at me on here or shoot me an email. I got plenty of stories about Mike.
Wow this place is like a reunion. I know you Steve. I'll email you my contact info. Another guy you're familiar with is on these boards too. We all need to meet up and have a drink sometime.

I never sparred with Mike but I saw what an animal he could be in the gym. Fortunately most of the big punchers I sparred with were often lazy (Bert Cooper, David Tua) or took it light most days (George Foreman, Wladimir Klitschko, Lennox Lewis).

For me it was Evander Holyfield who went to war almost every single damn time. I used to dread the thought of getting it on with him because he always put me through my paces. He worked like a damn pack animal and turned my head into a bobble head doll all the time, even flooring me the first time I sparred with him. Jesus. Great friend to this day but not in the ring.

Mike was never really too nice of a guy but I witnessed him putting grown men to sleep when he was as young as 15. He really had talent.

 

[jackswstd]

at Foreman's jab having that much effect

 

[patscorpio]

good read...holyfield had arthritis in his 30s and still fought on as long as he did? shyt

sparring partner stories are always an interesting read when 2 notable fighters go at it

 

[King P]

good read...holyfield had arthritis in his 30s and still fought on as long as he did? shyt

sparring partner stories are always an interesting read when 2 notable fighters go at it

When the Klitschko Bros sparred against each other, they used to go all shyt. It would get really ugly. Wlad said he broke his leg sparring with Vitali once.

 

[King P]

I'm a big Bowe fan. Find that hard to believe about his punching power. He always seemed very heavy handed. Plus Holyfield admitted that Bowe was the hardest puncher he ever faced. But then again this guy actually got hit by Bowe so I won't dismiss what he said

 

[patscorpio]

I'm a big Bowe fan. Find that hard to believe about his punching power. He always seemed very heavy handed. Plus Holyfield admitted that Bowe was the hardest puncher he ever faced. But then again this guy actually got hit by Bowe so I won't dismiss what he said

i thought holyfield said foreman was

 

[King P]

i thought holyfield said foreman was

Really? I remember reading an article a long time ago from Holyfield asking who was the hardest hitter he faced and him saying Bowe. I'll have to look it up, so if I can find it.

Wouldn't be surprised if it was actually Foreman though

 

[ℒℴѵℯJay ELECTUA]

dope..subs

 

[Amare's Right Hook]

Great thread, more like this

 

[YaBoy]

Good read. I wouldn't guess Wlad is the strongest puncher

 

[mr. smoke weed]

that shocks the hell out of me about Wlad

 

[King P]

that shocks the hell out of me about Wlad

Really?

I'm not surprised at all. You could tell dude hits like a fukking truck

 

[NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong]

Great read indeed, love shyt like this.

I know someone who watched Foreman spar in Vegas in the early 90's and he said George knocked 3/4 dudes out and could hear his punches from a mile away. Dude was a beast.