Enough with the Islam threads

[Gallo]

Muslim bashing is ok. However I accurately say Jesus simped(by definition that is exactly what he did if you read the text)and wifed a hoe(the church says she's a hoe I didn't make this up) I get censored.

At the end of the day I want all religious criticism/opinions to continue. It's why we have free speech in this country.

 

[Type Username Here]

I'm an atheist, so I have no dog in this fight, except one: I want to live in a peaceful world. To achieve this, in my mind it's a necessity to expose the powers that be, the movers and shakers and what's actually going on in the world. Instead all I hear and read are discussions about Muhammed's women and quotes from scripture of Bronze Age texts preaching violence, as if this has anything to do with anything. People just love to indulge in broad generalizations of others in order to support a perception of moral or intellectual superiority. Broke Wave raised an excellent point about propaganda. It is obvious to me that Western media is doing its best to stoke this fire.

The problem isn't with Islam or any other single belief system. Or any other single belief for that matter. This is about people in power maintaining their power by pushing a topic with broad public support. Usually that support comes from ignorance or gullibility. Look at all the things justified "because terrorists". You don't solve this problem by ranting about Islam or Muslims. You solve it by convincing people that they need to be less gullible. Education and information is important. Iran isn't keeping women out of schools out of misogyny, they're doing it to keep people tractable.

Imperialism, foreign intervention, torturing Muslims in Abu Ghraib - forcing them to masturbate to the videotaped laughs of sadistic American soldiers, drone attacks, puppet governments, financing the Zionist siege of Gaza - this is what the US is doing to Muslims. Then Korans are burned, put in toilets, mocking videos are made just to rub it in. Then Americans get all indignant that their mockeries of an almost-conquered people are not taken in a light-hearted fashion.

The largest military power in the world overthrew the government of a small country. Can anyone imagine the US ambassador in Libya getting blown up if the US hadn't bombed the Libyan government out of existance?

So enough with the religion bashing. It's a red herring, there to distract you from the real problems. I'm not defending corrupt dictorships, religious fanaticism, violent zealotry, or anything of the sort. I only stand for human decency and truth.

I appreciate your point but people that make this argument forget that philosophical differences in human beings don't exist. They do. The media and America, are relatively new concepts. This doesn't change the fact that Islam had rift in its religion, and that the two different sects had bouts of violence. Not just Islam, all religions. This happened before the concept of propaganda as we know it happened. Before a media existed. I can cite you many examples.

I don't buy this American propaganda and media shyt. It conveniently ignores much of history and the principles of philosophical differences that govern human interactions.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Muslim bashing is ok. However I accurately say Jesus simped(by definition that is exactly what he did if you read the text)and wifed a hoe(the church says she's a hoe I didn't make this up) I get censored.

J was an Essene so that isn't accurate (until further evidence is found), but there's no reason to censor that claim. Why censor something about a dude treating a woman like a woman? That makes no sense.
​

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

I'm an atheist, so I have no dog in this fight, except one: I want to live in a peaceful world. To achieve this, in my mind it's a necessity to expose the powers that be, the movers and shakers and what's actually going on in the world. Instead all I hear and read are discussions about Muhammed's women and quotes from scripture of Bronze Age texts preaching violence, as if this has anything to do with anything. People just love to indulge in broad generalizations of others in order to support a perception of moral or intellectual superiority. Broke Wave raised an excellent point about propaganda. It is obvious to me that Western media is doing its best to stoke this fire.

The problem isn't with Islam or any other single belief system. Or any other single belief for that matter. This is about people in power maintaining their power by pushing a topic with broad public support. Usually that support comes from ignorance or gullibility. Look at all the things justified "because terrorists". You don't solve this problem by ranting about Islam or Muslims. You solve it by convincing people that they need to be less gullible. Education and information is important. Iran isn't keeping women out of schools out of misogyny, they're doing it to keep people tractable.

Imperialism, foreign intervention, torturing Muslims in Abu Ghraib - forcing them to masturbate to the videotaped laughs of sadistic American soldiers, drone attacks, puppet governments, financing the Zionist siege of Gaza - this is what the US is doing to Muslims. Then Korans are burned, put in toilets, mocking videos are made just to rub it in. Then Americans get all indignant that their mockeries of an almost-conquered people are not taken in a light-hearted fashion.

The largest military power in the world overthrew the government of a small country. Can anyone imagine the US ambassador in Libya getting blown up if the US hadn't bombed the Libyan government out of existance?

So enough with the religion bashing. It's a red herring, there to distract you from the real problems. I'm not defending corrupt dictorships, religious fanaticism, violent zealotry, or anything of the sort. I only stand for human decency and truth.

Eh...you make some very good points and express them eloquently, but I only halfway agree with this. The ruling classes do use Islam to control the masses and maintain power, just like most ruling classes throughout history do through religiosity or other means of appeal to emotion and culture. But you can't discount the role of religious fervor amongst the people and attribute it all to manipulation by the elites. You mention Iran keeping women out of schools. Okay so do you think if the Mullahs and their puppets in the Iranian government were overthrown and you saw a new government that was more representative of the people women would have equal rights? I don't. And Iran is one of the most progressive Muslim nations. In Saudi or Afghanistan, forget it. You can argue that corrupt leaders and geopolitics fostered a lot of that and it will take a while to overcome, but it wouldn't have been possible without the religious element.

So you can't dismiss the religion and the text of the Quran and how it has mis-shaped the culture in middle eastern nations (along with other factors) as a red herring. Look at some of the events of the Arab spring, particularly in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood has strong support.

I understand your point, but attributing it all to the machinations of the ruling classes is an incomplete picture. Any critique that tries to mitigate the role of Islam in their culture still being in the dark ages is not a holistic one.

It kinda reminds me of when some marxists try to say slavery in the Americas had nothing to do with racism and was just all about economics and ruling elites manipulating cacs, then citing Bacon's rebellion or some shyt, which I say is utter bullshyt not to mention offensive.

 

[The Real]

Okay. Let me illustrate. You have a river of fresh water flowing. Can you imagine it? This river flows to an ocean of salt water. Between this river and ocean is a barrier called brackish water.

This barrier prevents the river from becoming saturated with salt so ancient civilizations could grow without the need for desaltilization. A mercy from Allah.

This again? Bruh, by definition, if an intermediate between two things is formed out of a mixture of those two things, it's not a barrier between them, just like green isn't a barrier between blue and yellow in a rainbow. Rather, it's a single continuum that shows different gradations at different points. Once you cross what we call "brackish" water to the fresh water, it's not as if the fresh water is all purely fresh and then only suddenly stops being so when it hits brackish water. It gets saltier the closer you measure it to the brackish water, and less salty the further away it is. It's a continuum- the designations are for human purposes and don't reflect absolute differences in the water content because there are no such absolute differences. Fresh water is rarely purely fresh, and salty water can't be "purely" salty.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

breh's, the Qur'an isn't a science book and it was never meant to me. Let's relax with that.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

I appreciate your point but people that make this argument forget that philosophical differences in human beings don't exist. They do. The media and America, are relatively new concepts. This doesn't change the fact that Islam had rift in its religion, and that the two different sects had bouts of violence. Not just Islam, all religions. This happened before the concept of propaganda as we know it happened. Before a media existed. I can cite you many examples.

I don't buy this American propaganda and media shyt. It conveniently ignores much of history and the principles of philosophical differences that govern human interactions.

So what? There have been wars over democracy, totalitarianism, fascism, and other political systems....war and oraganized violence is a facet of human interaction whether you want it to be or not, that's why every respectable, sovereign nation has some sort of military with which to defend itself. You of all people should know this, and I think you do. Islam is supposed to be a way of life and not just a religion, so naturally it will outline precepts for war, as well as peace. For what it's worth I disagree with those Muslims who say things like "Islam means PEACE!!!," because that's just not true....it's just like when Christians say shyt like "God is LOVE!!!!," it's nonsense.

You don't have to be a Muslim to see and understand that the advent of Islam improved conditions in the middle east....no historian in their right mind would argue otherwise.

 

[Type Username Here]

So what? There have been wars over democracy, totalitarianism, fascism, and other political systems....war and oraganized violence is a facet of human interaction whether you want it to be or not, that's why every respectable, sovereign nation has some sort of military with which to defend itself. You of all people should know this, and I think you do. Islam is supposed to be a way of life and not just a religion, so naturally it will outline precepts for war, as well as peace. For what it's worth I disagree with those Muslims who say things like "Islam means PEACE!!!," because that's just not true....it's just like when Christians say shyt like "God is LOVE!!!!," it's nonsense.

You don't have to be a Muslim to see and understand that the advent of Islam improved conditions in the middle east....no historian in their right mind would argue otherwise.

That's the point I am making. The only difference brother, is the concepts you listed are known by their followers to be social human constructs. Those things (for the most part) are not seen as Divine. When you mix social constructs with divinity, it entrenches even more the followers. That is NOT to say that some don't treat Nationalism with a sense of religiosity. The Nazi's for example, had an absolute culture of worship in their nationalism. America too, during the Red Scare and Communist Inquisitions.

It's much easier to break someone from nationalism, capitalism, etc than a religious interpretation of existence.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

This again? Bruh, by definition, if an intermediate between two things is formed out of a mixture of those two things, it's not a barrier between them, just like green isn't a barrier between blue and yellow in a rainbow. Rather, it's a single continuum that shows different gradations at different points. Once you cross what we call "brackish" water to the fresh water, it's not as if the fresh water is all fresh and then only suddenly stops being so when it hits brackish water. It gets saltier the close you measure it to the brackish water, and less salty the further away it is. It's a continuum- the designations are for human purposes and don't reflect absolute differences in the water content because there are no such absolute differences. Fresh water is rarely purely fresh, and salty water can't be "purely" salty.

I commend your patience and calm. You would make a great special ed teacher.

Timbo can't grasp 4th grade-level science class material and wonders why I ignore his stan-like overtures for a "mature intellectual" debate on Islam.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

Eh...you make some very good points and express them eloquently, but I only halfway agree with this. The ruling classes do use Islam to control the masses and maintain power, just like most ruling classes throughout history do through religiosity or other means of appeal to emotion and culture. But you can't discount the role of religious fervor amongst the people and attribute it all to manipulation by the elites. You mention Iran keeping women out of schools. Okay so do you think if the Mullahs and their puppets in the Iranian government were overthrown and you saw a new government that was more representative of the people women would have equal rights? I don't. And Iran is one of the most progressive Muslim nations. In Saudi or Afghanistan, forget it. You can argue that corrupt leaders and geopolitics fostered a lot of that and it will take a while to overcome, but it wouldn't have been possible without the religious element.

So you can't dismiss the religion and the text of the Quran and how it has mis-shaped the culture in middle eastern nations (along with other factors) as a red herring. Look at some of the events of the Arab spring, particularly in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood has strong support.

I understand your point, but attributing it all to the machinations of the ruling classes is an incomplete picture. Any critique that tries to mitigate the role of Islam in their culture still being in the dark ages is not a holistic one.

It kinda reminds me of when some marxists try to say slavery in the Americas had nothing to do with racism and was just all about economics and ruling elites manipulating cacs, then citing Bacon's rebellion or some shyt, which I say is utter bullshyt not to mention offensive.

Iran? First of all Iran isn't Islamic in the traditional sense, they got their own thing going on over there....secondly, we supported a murderous dictator there for years, helped another dictator(sadaam) kill thousands of their people, overthrow a leader they democratcially elect (who was far from a religious fanatic) and re-install the aforementioned murderous dictator, and wonder why those people have become "radicalized." but it's Islam that's at fault? I don't think so. We've played too many games in the middle east and all over the third-world to blame all their problems on religion. That's fukking bullshyt.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

Iran? First of all Iran isn't Islamic in the traditional sense, they got their own thing going on over there....secondly, we supported a murderous dictator there for years, helped another dictator(sadaam) kill thousands of their people, overthrow a leader they democratcially elect (who was far from a religious fanatic) and re-install the aforementioned murderous dictator, and wonder why those people have become "radicalized." but it's Islam that's at fault? I don't think so. We've played too many games in the middle east and all over the third-world to blame all their problems on religion. That's fukking bullshyt.

Did you even read what I typed?

 

[GetInTheTruck]

That's the point I am making. The only difference brother, is the concepts you listed are known by their followers to be social human constructs. Those things (for the most part) are not seen as Divine. When you mix social constructs with divinity, it entrenches even more the followers. That is NOT to say that some don't treat Nationalism with a sense of religiosity. The Nazi's for example, had an absolute culture of worship in their nationalism. America too, during the Red Scare and Communist Inquisitions.

It's much easier to break someone from nationalism, capitalism, etc than a religious interpretation of existence.

When Islam spread like wildfire and took over much of that part of the world, Muslims had the power to exterminate whoever they wanted, but they didn't. If Islam is such a poisonous and violent ideology then why didn't they do so? Muslims didn't have to grant things like freedom of religion, lower taxes for the native populace, and a justice system that was fairer than anything they had seen prior....but they did. Why did people welcome Islamic rule over their current masters if it was so oppressive? These are questions I've yet to see answered by people who rail against Islam all day. Nobody is asking you to stop being an atheist or to become a Muslim, but facts are facts. Your problems with what is going on in the Muslim world today are valid, but you misplace your anger when you lay the blame solely at the feet of Islam. It just doesn't add up.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

Did you even read what I typed?

I did. What percentage of blame for the problems in the middle would you say can be attributed to Islam, and what percentage would you attribute to western interference/meddling?

 

[Type Username Here]

When Islam spread like wildfire and took over much of that part of the world, Muslims had the power to exterminate whoever they wanted, but they didn't. If Islam is such a poisonous and violent ideology then why didn't they do so?

A virus that quickly kills all of its hosts will die out. They killed and enslaved a lot of people to push their beliefs.

Muslims didn't have to grant things like freedom of religion, lower taxes for the native populace, and a justice system that was fairer than anything they had seen prior....but they did.

Americans didn't have to grant Iraq voting rights, infrastructure assistance, monetary compensation, a fair justice system (for the Shi'te and Kurds anyway) than anything they had under Saddam...but they did.

Does that excuse what they did? NO.

Why did people welcome Islamic rule over their current masters if it was so oppressive? These are questions I've yet to see answered by people who rail against Islam all day. Nobody is asking you to stop being an atheist or to become a Muslim, but facts are facts. Your problems with what is going on in the Muslim world today are valid, but you misplace your anger when you lay the blame solely at the feet of Islam. It just doesn't add up.

My government shares a brunt of the blame. If you read my posts here, I'm not exactly a pro-America person in all facets. Also, I'm not anti-Islam, I am anti-religion. Period. It's why I am against the state of Israel, which I feel was given a piece of land solely because "God deemed they live there".

Not everything has to do with foreign policy. Some of it is philosophical (theological) in nature.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

I did. What percentage of blame for the problems in the middle would you say can be attributed to Islam, and what percentage would you attribute to western interference/meddling?

I can't answer that question and I don't think any person in the world can. But you can't dismiss the influence of one or the other and where they intersect, and any critique that attempts to mitigate either is missing the mark.