Don’t Blink, or You’ll Miss Another Bailout

[Type Username Here]

all the Fed did was tell AIG that they couldn't sue Bank of America for the toxic Countrywide Bank mortgages that BOA purchased in '08 (mortgages that the bank has already lost $40+ billion on).

how much more would you like Bank of America to be penalized for sub-prime mortgages that they didn't originate?

and again, how is this equivalent to welfare? you and the author of this article are reaching.

This fukking sub-prime mortgage nonsense again? Hasn't this been debunked over and over again?

This IS welfare, just corporate welfare.

I see how you trying to duck out of you original point. The fact is, the US taxpayer LOST money in those bailouts, to the tune of billions of dollars.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Food stamp program helping reduce poverty.

The Effect of Specific Welfare Policies on Poverty

You are right, by the strict definition of poverty the govt giving financial aid does help bring people above the income threshold that defines poverty

But even by your own link's admission there are issues w/welfare in the context of just getting people off the programs, let alone any link between the programs and these people entering the middle class

UF Researcher’s Experience With Poverty Provides Insight Into Welfare | University of Florida News

No Reincar, this chick had 4 kids by age 30 and no man in sight. Not to mention, plenty of college students find ways to survive through college w/o relying on parents or SNAP to eat. Why should this lady get special treatment? I think it's good that they got rid of those provisions... nobody told this chick to have 4 kids w/no education

Welfare pulls people from poverty and allows them to add to the American workforce and economy.

No... welfare is a govt subsidy. These folks are not "adding" to the American workforce/economy, the govt is on their behalf.

Welfare is in effect an investment in our future, much more so than big business bailouts and lower tax rates for the rich.

How's that? Welfare does little to nothing to break the cycles of poverty. There are plenty of families who are on welfare generation after generation.

Report: 25 Percent Of Millionaires Pay Lower Taxes Than 10.4 Million Middle-Class Americans | ThinkProgress

Americans' 90% tax rate - CNN.com


http://www.itepnet.org/whopays3release.pdf


The Quick and the Ed » Effective Tax Rates of the Richest 400 Americans

Tax rates on the rich in constant decline.

Taxes on EVERYBODY are in constant decline. And total effective tax rates on the rich are still significantly higher than those for the middle class, as they have always been and always will be.

Historical Average Federal Tax Rates for All Households

That is the point of welfare. Everyone in this country who is not poor can attribute it to someone in their past using some form of "welfare" to pull themselves from poverty. We think of "welfare" as food stamps today. But welfare encompasses everything from farmers getting grants and loans. To public schooling. To housing programs, training programs. Business loans and goverment contracts. The list goes on. Even food stamps allow people to concentrate on bettering their lives and careers. Instead of taking shytty jobs just to feed themselves, they can go to school or get some type of training in order to remove themselves from poverty altogether. Obviously it doesn't work that way for all people, but it does work for a lot of people, which is eveident by the amount of people who DO make it out of poverty. It's all an investment in our lower class and that investment has always pulled people from poverty and into the middle class which in turn made our economy one of the largest and strongest ever. As we move away from that investment in the lower class our economy has become stagnant and has been weakened

You are right, in that very few Americans are truly "self-made". But describing welfare as "an investment into our future" is wrong. Govt guaranteed student loans are an investment into our future. NASA is an investment into our future. Tax subsidies of shyt like domestic oil drilling, whether you agree with it or not, is an investment into our future. We are in a recession now, and with 8 million jobs destroyed I think it is OK for a temporary swell in welfare programs. But long term, welfare is not an investment in our future. At least in its current form, in which certain able bodied/minded people are on and off it their whole natural lives. Those folks completely counter your assertion that welfare is some stopgap stepping stone. It isn't

 

[Brown_Pride]

You are right, by the strict definition of poverty the govt giving financial aid does help bring people above the income threshold that defines poverty

But even by your own link's admission there are issues w/welfare in the context of just getting people off the programs, let alone any link between the programs and these people entering the middle class




No Reincar, this chick had 4 kids by age 30 and no man in sight. Not to mention, plenty of college students find ways to survive through college w/o relying on parents or SNAP to eat. Why should this lady get special treatment? I think it's good that they got rid of those provisions... nobody told this chick to have 4 kids w/no education


No... welfare is a govt subsidy. These folks are not "adding" to the American workforce/economy, the govt is on their behalf.


How's that? Welfare does little to nothing to break the cycles of poverty. There are plenty of families who are on welfare generation after generation.



Taxes on EVERYBODY are in constant decline. And total effective tax rates on the rich are still significantly higher than those for the middle class, as they have always been and always will be.

Historical Average Federal Tax Rates for All Households



You are right, in that very few Americans are truly "self-made". But describing welfare as "an investment into our future" is wrong. Govt guaranteed student loans are an investment into our future. NASA is an investment into our future. Tax subsidies of shyt like domestic oil drilling, whether you agree with it or not, is an investment into our future. We are in a recession now, and with 8 million jobs destroyed I think it is OK for a temporary swell in welfare programs. But long term, welfare is not an investment in our future. At least in its current form, in which certain able bodied/minded people are on and off it their whole natural lives. Those folks completely counter your assertion that welfare is some stopgap stepping stone. It isn't

more or less.

With welfare it's hard to use statistical data becvause the welfare of today is not the welfare of yesteryear. As the gap between the middle class widened so did the ability for welfare to cover that gap. In many cases there are people who make to much money to qualify and yet still need help.

I know a lot of people with an education struggling, not because they are spending friviously either. Sure they don't live in the ghetto but isn't that how it's supposed to be? The only people I know who are VERY well off and of the "middle class" are those who still live in the ghetto, or "non middle class" neighborhoods.

Everyone else struggling like a mofo on a relative paycheck to paycheck tip.

Want to hear some scary shyt? I know two people who work FOR DES here in AZ and both of them qualify to get money from DES.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

You are right, by the strict definition of poverty the govt giving financial aid does help bring people above the income threshold that defines poverty

But even by your own link's admission there are issues w/welfare in the context of just getting people off the programs, let alone any link between the programs and these people entering the middle class

I never said there weren't any problems with welfare. There will always be people who misuse the resources provided to them, but there will also always be people who take advantage of those resources and better themselves.

No Reincar, this chick had 4 kids by age 30 and no man in sight. Not to mention, plenty of college students find ways to survive through college w/o relying on parents or SNAP to eat. Why should this lady get special treatment? I think it's good that they got rid of those provisions... nobody told this chick to have 4 kids w/no education

Yes she made some mistakes in life, but that still doesn't change the fact that society is better off when people like her end up educated and productive members of society as opposed to siting in the projects popping out future criminals. And also this is only one story. Plenty of people do everything right in life and still can't afford college. Should we not help those people?

Yes people work through college without snap benefits, but people who have to work while going to college are much more likely to drop out or fail their classes. In my opinion it is very important to make sure our college students can concentrate on learning as opposed to wondering what they are gonna eat.

No... welfare is a govt subsidy. These folks are not "adding" to the American workforce/economy, the govt is on their behalf.

Yes they are. You are ignoring the millions of people who start off on welfare and end up being educated, productive members of society

How's that? Welfare does little to nothing to break the cycles of poverty. There are plenty of families who are on welfare generation after generation.

And there are even more families who have used welfare programs to better themselves.

Taxes on EVERYBODY are in constant decline. And total effective tax rates on the rich are still significantly higher than those for the middle class, as they have always been and always will be.

Historical Average Federal Tax Rates for All Households

Did you read the links I posted showing that poor people pay a much larger percentage of their earnings to taxes?

You are right, in that very few Americans are truly "self-made". But describing welfare as "an investment into our future" is wrong. Govt guaranteed student loans are an investment into our future. NASA is an investment into our future. Tax subsidies of shyt like domestic oil drilling, whether you agree with it or not, is an investment into our future. We are in a recession now, and with 8 million jobs destroyed I think it is OK for a temporary swell in welfare programs. But long term, welfare is not an investment in our future. At least in its current form, in which certain able bodied/minded people are on and off it their whole natural lives. Those folks completely counter your assertion that welfare is some stopgap stepping stone. It isn't

The funny thing is most of the things you listed are welfare. Goverment loans and grants for education is "welfare" goverment spending on infrastructure is "welfare" that money would go directly to small business or the working poor. In recent years people have equated "welfare" to "food stamps" and that assertion is just incorect. There is no difference between the goverment paying for your school or paying for your food. It's the goverment using resources to invest in the future of its citizens.

And at the bolded. That's just untrue. Those folks exist but they are in the minority and shouldn't be used as reason to take welfare away from those who actualy use it in a constructive manner. You mentioned goverment school loans, well plenty of people abuse that money as well, should we demonize, the program because some people misuse it? What about the oil drilling money you advocate, people abuse those resources as well, does that mean the entire idea is bad?

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

I never said there weren't any problems with welfare. There will always be people who misuse the resources provided to them, but there will also always be people who take advantage of those resources and better themselves.

Can you show some statistics to this effect? I am OK w/the idea that most people on welfare aren't abusing/scamming the system; where I need proof is that people are getting off welfare and jumping into the middle class

Yes she made some mistakes in life, but that still doesn't change the fact that society is better off when people like her end up educated and productive members of society as opposed to siting in the projects popping out future criminals. And also this is only one story. Plenty of people do everything right in life and still can't afford college. Should we not help those people?

Sure we should help them, and we do through programs like federal college loans. Where I disagree with you is that because this chick made more bad choices than the average person, we should give her more help. To a degree everyone gets help but at the same time it makes no sense to encourage bad decisions through goofy incentives.

Yes people work through college without snap benefits, but people who have to work while going to college are much more likely to drop out or fail their classes. In my opinion it is very important to make sure our college students can concentrate on learning as opposed to wondering what they are gonna eat.

Again, people can take out more loans to mitigate costs. People can take time off to work and come back. College costs are a whole other thing I don't want to get to here, they are not off the hook either. But as is, I think the same tools should be available to everyone.

Yes they are. You are ignoring the millions of people who start off on welfare and end up being educated, productive members of society

And there are even more families who have used welfare programs to better themselves.

Can you point to some statistics/links documenting all these welfare success stories?

Did you read the links I posted showing that poor people pay a much larger percentage of their earnings to taxes?

Sure I did... did you read my link showing that overall effective tax rates are progressive, and taxes have fallen more for the poor + middle class than the rich? You are cherry picking convenient pieces, I am looking at the whole picture.

The funny thing is most of the things you listed are welfare. Goverment loans and grants for education is "welfare" goverment spending on infrastructure is "welfare" that money would go directly to small business or the working poor. In recent years people have equated "welfare" to "food stamps" and that assertion is just incorect. There is no difference between the goverment paying for your school or paying for your food. It's the goverment using resources to invest in the future of its citizens.

The difference between the govt paying for shyt like infrastructure and college vs food + shelter is on the former we get a return on our investment, on the latter we don't. The former fosters way more economic activity than the latter- govt builds a new highway, new towns and businesses can be built, commerce can be increased. We saw this happen with plenty of cities, most notably NYC. Govt subsidizes people's living expenses, you have yet to show any proof that those people use that to better themselves.

And at the bolded. That's just untrue. Those folks exist but they are in the minority and shouldn't be used as reason to take welfare away from those who actualy use it in a constructive manner. You mentioned goverment school loans, well plenty of people abuse that money as well, should we demonize, the program because some people misuse it? What about the oil drilling money you advocate, people abuse those resources as well, does that mean the entire idea is bad?

Again, show me proof that people on welfare are using welfare to turn their lives around. Not to mention, someone abuses a school loan, its bad, but they have to pay it back. Someone abuses welfare zero consequence. You can only be on school loans for so long. You can go from cradle to grave on welfare. Etc. etc. The two aren't comparable.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

Can you show some statistics to this effect? I am OK w/the idea that most people on welfare aren't abusing/scamming the system; where I need proof is that people are getting off welfare and jumping into the middle class

I've provided links which you discredited immediately. So I'm not going to continue the "find me a link" game. You research it and you find out for yourself.

But beyond any links or statistics use common sense. People are pulling themselves from poverty everyday, do you think welfare programs are not helping those people?

Our parents and our grandparents made it through poverty to provide the opportunities that we enjoy, don't you think welfare played a part in that? Even though they worked hard, welfare put the opportunities there for them to take.

Sure we should help them, and we do through programs like federal college loans. Where I disagree with you is that because this chick made more bad choices than the average person, we should give her more help. To a degree everyone gets help but at the same time it makes no sense to encourage bad decisions through goofy incentives.

So how do we write law that can anticipate and single out those who made mistakes. Like I said this is only one case, plenty of people find themselves in her exact predicament without making the same mistakes.

And you keep asking for proof, but you have no proof that welfare "encourages" bad decisions. Thats a line that people try to use to demonize welfare but in reality you have absolutely nothing to back up those claims. Nobody wants to be on welfare, nobody decides that "I'm gonna grow up and have a bunch of babies with no daddy's so I can get $400 a month in foodstamps" if they do they are lazy scum welfare or not. We shouldn't let lazy scum influence policies that help people who do want to do better.

Again, people can take out more loans to mitigate costs. People can take time off to work and come back. College costs are a whole other thing I don't want to get to here, they are not off the hook either. But as is, I think the same tools should be available to everyone.

Poor people can't take out loans. It's a known fact that its more difficult for black people to get loans. What should they do?

Can you point to some statistics/links documenting all these welfare success stories?

I've already posted some.

Sure I did... did you read my link showing that overall effective tax rates are progressive, and taxes have fallen more for the poor + middle class than the rich? You are cherry picking convenient pieces, I am looking at the whole picture.

Your the one cherry picking for convenience. Poor Americans pay a higher percentage of their earnings to taxes than rich people. That's a true fact no matter how you look at the numbers.

The difference between the govt paying for shyt like infrastructure and college vs food + shelter is on the former we get a return on our investment, on the latter we don't. The former fosters way more economic activity than the latter- govt builds a new highway, new towns and businesses can be built, commerce can be increased. We saw this happen with plenty of cities, most notably NYC. Govt subsidizes people's living expenses, you have yet to show any proof that those people use that to better themselves.

Do you know how many people would be out of a job if food stamps ended?

Isn't the fact that we don't have poor people begging in the streets and robbing people for food a "return on investment"?

Aren't the people who use welfare to pull themeves from poverty a "return on investment" once they start adding to the economy and workforce?

I've shown proof that people use welfare to better themselves. You even agreed that at some point most Americans used some type of "welfare" to make it out of poverty. Do you disagree with yourself now?

Again, show me proof that people on welfare are using welfare to turn their lives around. Not to mention, someone abuses a school loan, its bad, but they have to pay it back. Someone abuses welfare zero consequence. You can only be on school loans for so long. You can go from cradle to grave on welfare. Etc. etc. The two aren't comparable.

Again I showed you plenty of proof, yet you chose to ignore it.

Those who abuse their school loans don't pay them back. That's the definition of school loan abuse. Someone abuses welfare and they never make it out of poverty. Either way the money is waisted, and no you can't go "from the cradle to the grave" on welfare. There are plenty of restrictions put in place to prevent that.

This idea that the majority of people on welfare are hoodrats with a bunch of kids is totaly false. The majority of people on welfare are working people, veterans, students, disabled, elderly. Should the fact that some hoodrats might take advantage of the system dictate that we remove the help from the people who actually need it, and use it to better themselves?

 

[ecnirp1]

I see how you trying to duck out of you original point. The fact is, the US taxpayer LOST money in those bailouts, to the tune of billions of dollars.

that's a lie. the majority of the smaller banks that have been lent tarp money have not even paid it back yet so how can you determine a final net loss at this point? the Fed received billions back in interest from AIG alone and almost all legitimate sources keeping score say that the government is near break even. additionally, the interest that banks with outstanding tarp money will have to pay it back goes up to a rate of 9% after this year.

This fukking sub-prime mortgage nonsense again? Hasn't this been debunked over and over again?

no it hasn't actually. you saying that it's a myth doesn't negate the impact that the junk mortgage assets and foreclosures had on banks and the economy.

This IS welfare, just corporate welfare.

did you even read the article you posted? the Fed wouldn't let AIG couldn't sue Bank of America because AIG no longer owns the mortgage securities they're trying to sue BOA over. those assets now belong to Maiden Lane so Maiden Lane should be the ones suing Bank of America. wtf does that have to do with welfare?

 

[beenz]

and they said these banks were too big to fail.......

fukking thieves.