Does the end justify the means.

[JahFocus CS]

I don't extol poverty. I don't think poverty is anything to be proud of or to valorize. I don't blame people for trying to gain stability in life. Oh well, blame me for that

 

[The Blind Man]

Some would ask isn't it up to the individual, family, and/or the society to deem what is worthy of being qualified? if so, then other factors that plays on the individual, family, and society respectively, will grow in importance during the process of qualifying something

Thus why I focused on "honesty, =" because it is applicable to the three entities I just mentioned. And also it is a fundamentally immalleable notion that has two states, yes or no, you are either telling the truth or not. No other factors will affect "honesty"...this is assuming all or most of the info is known about the means

I too agree that the focus on honesty is important. But your last statement shows where it falls down, the assumption, however, great or small has to be made to qualify "honesty" I find it difficult to make the assumption without empirical evidence which on a personal level can be very difficult.

So if the individual, family and or society live dishonestly how can they qualify honesty, and would you believe them anyway?

 

[JahFocus CS]

Well, I stated "free" for a reason, maybe the nuance is too slight in an exchange like this.

The presuppositions in the first section of your post are by themselves astounding and leave me with little scope to have reasonable discourse but do highlight a great deal of the hypocrisy and delusion I have already discussed.

I cannot resort to ad hominins in a serious discussion so any assumption on your morality s beyond me. Neither can I presume your culture or indeed the colour of your skin as some deciding factor as to who you are or indeed what type of person you are.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Racism and class exploitation are social facts and is something experienced on a group level. People don't experience racism because they are John Doe, people aren't exploited workers because they are Jane Doe, but because they belong to a social group or class. That is an inescapable fact because it's how society is structured.

 

[The Blind Man]

I don't extol poverty. I don't think poverty is anything to be proud of or to valorize. I don't blame people for trying to gain stability in life. Oh well, blame me for that

I do not appropriate blame good sir. Your "freedom" to attempt to gain stability on your own terms could make you look "free" to people who live somewhere, even as close as the same continent as your good self to whom that concept is alien.

In a democratic sense I suspect I have more "freedom" than a man my age in North Korea but not as much as a man my age in Sweden.

 

[JahFocus CS]

I do not appropriate blame good sir. Your "freedom" to attempt to gain stability on your own terms could make you look "free" to people who live somewhere, even as close as the same continent as your good self to whom that concept is alien.

In a democratic sense I suspect I have more "freedom" than a man my age in North Korea but not as much as a man my age in Sweden.

Sure, but I recognize the linkages between all struggles for liberation. I want the same freedom for myself and for everyone else in the world. What I do not condone is romanticizing life in a place and turning around and sweeping the oppression there under the rug, or not giving it the attention it deserves.

 

[The Blind Man]

Racism and class exploitation are social facts and is something experienced on a group level. People don't experience racism because they are John Doe, people aren't exploited workers because they are Jane Doe, but because they belong to a social group or class. That is an inescapable fact because it's how society is structured.

To this, I am aware, although completely uncomfortable. Hence taking my sister to task over her conservative views on immigration when our father and grandparents are all immigrants, who in some cases fought wars to end a similar strain of hatred they encountered once in the country.

Do you think its purely structural, on an institutional level? Resulting in its near perpetual motion like perfection, once learned even the oppresed will find an outlet for the same behaviour even if it means turning on their own group?

 

[Isaiah Bradley]

I too agree that the focus on honesty is important. But your last statement shows where it falls down, the assumption, however, great or small has to be made to qualify "honesty" I find it difficult to make the assumption without empirical evidence which on a personal level can be very difficult.

So if the individual, family and or society live dishonestly how can they qualify honesty, and would you believe them anyway?

Bingo. That is why I attempted to simplify the assumption as much as possible..."is all/most information known to determine if someone is telling the truth," but just like you said, empirical evidence would be needed by the individual in order to begin the process of qualifying something

So I go back to the importance of "honesty" being applicable to the three entities because each will serve as a safety net for moments where a single entity fails/stalls in the process of qualifying something

The relationship among the entities is based on the building block where society is built on top of the family, then the family is built on top of the individual, then the individual is built on top of his morals/views/beliefs. Each entity having a bidirectional effect on the entity built above it

-if a society is living dishonest, then isn't it possible for an individual or family to inject honesty, if empirical evidence exist
-if an individual is living dishonest, then isn't it possible for society or family to inject honesty, if empirical evidence exist
-if a family is living dishonest, then isn't it possible for an individual or family to inject honesty, if empirical evidence exist

So an individual without empirical evidence will ideally lean on the family( meaning other groups of familiar individual's perspective/opinion/interpretation of the truth), if that fails, then family lean on society(groups of groups of unfamiliar individual's perspective/opinion/interpretation of the truth)

One group in a group may inject honesty in society, which could then trickle down to the family and eventually the individual. The assumption is based on whether all/most of the information exist. If none/not enough information exist, then determining truth is impossible, thus honesty wouldn't be qualified

 

[JahFocus CS]

To this, I am aware, although completely uncomfortable. Hence taking my sister to task over her conservative views on immigration when our father and grandparents are all immigrants, who in some cases fought wars to end a similar strain of hatred they encountered once in the country.

Do you think its purely structural, on an institutional level? Resulting in its near perpetual motion like perfection, once learned even the oppresed will find an outlet for the same behaviour even if it means turning on their own group?

You say you are aware of it, yet you characterized my discussion of some of the manifestations of racism and class exploitation as "presuppositions... [that] are by themselves astounding and leave [you] with little scope to have reasonable discourse."

I do believe it is structural. A person can be oppressed and not realize it, because the system tries to naturalize oppression. People get accustomed to oppression as a fact of life and get comfortable with it. All the institutions of society work to obfuscate the exploitation of the working class by all sorts of means. People are misdirected into identity politics instead of class politics, are led to believe the answer is to fight racism with more racism and prejudice, into believing that Jews or LGBTQ people have conspired to enslave the world... the media, schooling, and mainstream electoral politics limit the vision of workers and teach them to accept things as they are.

If an oppressed person does not have a correct political outlook -- a politics of liberation for all people -- then of course, the only other possible thing is for them to embrace a politics of oppression, either one that maintains the oppression of their group or scapegoats another oppressed group.