Does the end justify the means.

The Blind Man

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I really hope I can build with fellow Coli Members on what is for some a very difficult topic to discuss.

I was born in England, my father wasn't born here, Ma Dukes was. Both sets of Grandparents chose to come to this country.

The xenophobia here is crazy, it's an Island, often invaded throughout history. The original people (whatever that means) who lived are long gone, lost in the annals of time, few theories but nothing concrete. All that remains is an amalgamation of traditions of various invading peoples.

I shift my focus on to America, the New World, a continent and culture that fascinates me.

By no means am I an "educated" individual but my interests leads me to read a great deal and from many different sources. It appears that the birth of a Nation/Empire comes via a great deal of bloodsheds, genocide, theft, feudalism, racism, misogyny and other proclivities of Mankind.

According to the history of our primate species, this has happened continuously, maybe from us becoming the dominate Hominid species.

I see nothing present in the world to think it's something we have managed to remove from our "way", maybe we cannot remove it, maybe we just don't want to remove it however much we profess to do so.

The environment and causality of my family being in the country which I was born were, like most, not a positive one by any stretch. But as I sit in the privileged position how do I view those events or events like them around the world.

I fear the way in which we apply our moral standards, however, subjective or indeed arbitrary, to history often betray or contradict the situation we find ourselves in the present.

America seems to epitomise this in a way other nations/empires cannot because we bear witness to the (ongoing) result whilst fully comprehending the violence on which it was built.

I just listened to a discussion between three individuals. The first is an American because their family chose to be. the second an American because their family was enslaved and trafficked to the country. The third, an American as the result of Americas foreign policy leaving the birthplace of their family inhabitable for someone who believes in a democracy, free speech and capitalism.

All proud to be American yet divided by the means in which their families arrived, we no wish to be anywhere else. They have more in common than not and a whole lot better off than the majority of humans on the planet. But at odds nonetheless.

Does the end justify the means or do we condemn the means yet enjoy the spoils the "end" allows us.
 
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The only way to justify the end is by being honest and as objective as possible with the means
I criticize the US because of the contradictions it props up as democracy/freedom, but I could never co-sign burning a flag because of the opportunities the US provides for me and my family
So it's like you are doing your part to nudge the direction of the country to the ideals and unique purposes that the "founding fathers" had in mind, which includes being honest with what was done in the past and present
 

JahFocus CS

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The ends do not justify the means if we're talking about oppressors and exploiters.

In general, the ends justify the means if we're talking about the oppressed and exploited fighting for their liberation.
 

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The phrase 'the ends justify the means' is almost always used when the means are something soulless and inhuman.

The ends never justfy the means in the moral sense, only the financial and exploitative.
 

JahFocus CS

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The phrase 'the ends justify the means' is almost always used when the means are something soulless and inhuman.

The ends never justfy the means in the moral sense, only the financial and exploitative.

I wouldn't say "soulless and inhuman," I think it's usually more like something you'd prefer not to do, but the situation makes it such that it is your only viable option.
 

The Blind Man

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man what u trying to say b :beli:

I am in a very privileged position compared to the majority of people in the world, I am not in that position through my own hard work, I just happened to be born in this country, to say I deserve it implies people who do not live here do not deserve it.

I sit here in a "free" society, warm, clothed, fed, knowing where my next meal is coming from, knowing my family are all safe, searching the internet, debating whether I am gonna play Xbox, PlayStation or watch a flick, with wifey in the other room face timing her cousin on another continent.

How am I to judge the various situations that led to me being born here, which even by my shaky moral standards, are aspects of human life I consider abhorrent. Colonialization, genocide, religious persecution, racism, misogyny and classism. Pops has only been here for 60 years, I would not trade his upbringing for mine, even though his upbringing has given me these opportunities.

I struggle with that duality is what I am saying, and see this throughout westernised culture, and I think this duality hold us back.
 

The Blind Man

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The phrase 'the ends justify the means' is almost always used when the means are something soulless and inhuman.

The ends never justfy the means in the moral sense, only the financial and exploitative.

But isn't morality subjective? Any person living in a "free" world is enjoying a way of life at the expense of other parts of the world. How can we reconcile morality with enjoying the fruits of an amoral society?

I am trying to discover whether the trinity of morality, capitalism and exploitation can exist without a crude cultural software patch of hypocrisy, denial and or delusion (although not mutually exclusive) installed to our thought process.
 

The Blind Man

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The only way to justify the end is by being honest and as objective as possible with the means
I criticize the US because of the contradictions it props up as democracy/freedom, but I could never co-sign burning a flag because of the opportunities the US provides for me and my family
So it's like you are doing your part to nudge the direction of the country to the ideals and unique purposes that the "founding fathers" had in mind, which includes being honest with what was done in the past and present

Yes, honesty is important, but not obligational as it cannot always be qualified. The lack of honesty and transparency from individuals, or designated groups to represent people, often makes their moral outrage almost laughable if it wasn't so dangerous.

For example, England and America built by immigrants yet almost completely hostile to immigrants. My own sister was complaining about immigrants and is herself the daughter of an immigrant enjoying a better way of life than the places her family originate from. Surprisingly the irony was lost on her.
 

JahFocus CS

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I am in a very privileged position compared to the majority of people in the world, I am not in that position through my own hard work, I just happened to be born in this country, to say I deserve it implies people who do not live here do not deserve it.

I sit here in a "free" society, warm, clothed, fed, knowing where my next meal is coming from, knowing my family are all safe, searching the internet, debating whether I am gonna play Xbox, PlayStation or watch a flick, with wifey in the other room face timing her cousin on another continent.

How am I to judge the various situations that led to me being born here, which even by my shaky moral standards, are aspects of human life I consider abhorrent. Colonialization, genocide, religious persecution, racism, misogyny and classism. Pops has only been here for 60 years, I would not trade his upbringing for mine, even though his upbringing has given me these opportunities.

I struggle with that duality is what I am saying, and see this throughout westernised culture, and I think this duality hold us back.

Are you a rich cac breh? Just asking. Because if you aren't -- and especially if you're a working class person of color, you don't live in a "free" society, you live in insecurity due to racist state forces and an economy premised upon exploiting your labor (or body, as we see with the prison-industrial complex). Maybe you have been able to avoid these harsh realities somehow... but that facade can be shattered at any moment :usure:

It isn't about feeling guilty. It is about having a recognition of historical and social truths, and working towards justice.

But isn't morality subjective? Any person living in a "free" world is enjoying a way of life at the expense of other parts of the world. How can we reconcile morality with enjoying the fruits of an amoral society?

I am trying to discover whether the trinity of morality, capitalism and exploitation can exist without a crude cultural software patch of hypocrisy, denial and or delusion (although not mutually exclusive) installed to our thought process.

That "trinity" is a false one since capitalism is exploitation and what the system does can, by no stretch of the imagination, be considered moral. So in a sense, yes, such a trinity can only exist through a person's and a society's own hypocrisy, denial, and delusion.

All of these historical truths shock the conscience. But they are felt in the modern-day and the systems that they put into place still exist. Ethnic cleansing and genocide in the U.S. against Indigenous peoples? Support the efforts of nations in your area to reclaim land and sovereignty. Concerned about workers' rights? Support revolutionary organizations and political parties dedicated to a working-class platform. Etc, etc.
 

The Blind Man

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The ends do not justify the means if we're talking about oppressors and exploiters.

In general, the ends justify the means if we're talking about the oppressed and exploited fighting for their liberation.

This would be okay if the liberated do not then go on to become oppressors and exploitative. How you gonna fight for freedom but members of your own cultural group are oppressed or exploited, usually women and children.
 

The Blind Man

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Are you a rich cac breh? Just asking. Because if you aren't -- and especially if you're a working class person of color, you don't live in a "free" society, you live in insecurity due to racist state forces and an economy premised upon exploiting your labor (or body, as we see with the prison-industrial complex). Maybe you have been able to avoid these harsh realities somehow... but that facade can be shattered at any moment :usure:

It isn't about feeling guilty. It is about having a recognition of historical and social truths, and working towards justice.



That "trinity" is a false one since capitalism is exploitation and what the system does can, by no stretch of the imagination, be considered moral. So in a sense, yes, such a trinity can only exist through a person's and a society's own hypocrisy, denial, and delusion.

All of these historical truths shock the conscience. But they are felt in the modern-day and the systems that they put into place still exist. Ethnic cleansing and genocide in the U.S. against Indigenous peoples? Support the efforts of nations in your area to reclaim land and sovereignty. Concerned about workers' rights? Support revolutionary organizations and political parties dedicated to a working-class platform. Etc, etc.

Well, I stated "free" for a reason, maybe the nuance is too slight in an exchange like this.

The presuppositions in the first section of your post are by themselves astounding and leave me with little scope to have reasonable discourse but do highlight a great deal of the hypocrisy and delusion I have already discussed.

I cannot resort to ad hominins in a serious discussion so any assumption on your morality s beyond me. Neither can I presume your culture or indeed the colour of your skin as some deciding factor as to who you are or indeed what type of person you are.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.
 

The Blind Man

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viable. adjective, meaning capable of being successful.

I wouldn't say "soulless and inhuman," I think it's usually more like something you'd prefer not to do, but the situation makes it such that it is your only viable option.

Spoken like a true revolutionary beanie and t-shirt selling capitalist, :salute::mjpls:


How dangerous of a statement is "I'd prefer not to act in a soulless and inhumane way but as it's my only option it's viable"

By no means is it as catchy as the original and profound "No Money Mo Problems", but anyone from Wall Street Bankers to Radovan Karadžić could rock with that.:myman:
 
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Yes, honesty is important, but not obligational as it cannot always be qualified. The lack of honesty and transparency from individuals, or designated groups to represent people, often makes their moral outrage almost laughable if it wasn't so dangerous.

For example, England and America built by immigrants yet almost completely hostile to immigrants. My own sister was complaining about immigrants and is herself the daughter of an immigrant enjoying a better way of life than the places her family originate from. Surprisingly the irony was lost on her.

Some would ask isn't it up to the individual, family, and/or the society to deem what is worthy of being qualified? if so, then other factors that plays on the individual, family, and society respectively, will grow in importance during the process of qualifying something

Thus why I focused on "honesty, =" because it is applicable to the three entities I just mentioned. And also it is a fundamentally immalleable notion that has two states, yes or no, you are either telling the truth or not. No other factors will affect "honesty"...this is assuming all or most of the info is known about the means
 
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