the cac mamba
Veteran
id like to get some different perspectives on this, im not sure what people believe
Does god give us free will? or is our fate pre-determined?
- Thread starter the cac mamba
- Start date
yes.
OG_StankBrefs
Da Spice...
no one knows what god has given us (or if it even exists for that matter). If someone you know says that they know, please send them to a psychiatrist.
the cac mamba
Veteran
if he gives us free will, then how can he have a purpose for us on earth? wouldnt it have to be one or the other?
the cac mamba
Veteran
lol everyone "knows" what god wants, i would say 95% of religious people are sure about who he really is and what his influence is in their life
I've been saying organized religiosity should be considered a mental disorder
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How could the theological God ever give someone true "free will" if that being didn't have a choice in existing in the first place?
The question above is especially accurate when you consider that these people also believe in a soul.
The question above is especially accurate when you consider that these people also believe in a soul.
Brian O'Conner
All Star
its not so much free will as it is making the choice to obey God or be rebellious
There may be freedom, but if so, certainly not in the way we understand it now, where I desire and/or think something, then do it, and that's freedom. The truth is that we don't know where our thoughts come from. Spinoza once said that freedom is simply a word we use to cover up the fact that we don't know the causes for any of our actions. I believe he was right.
For one, if we truly accept causality in a literal way, then every new moment and everything in it is the product of an immense causal chain that extends back into the past so far it's completely inconceivable to us, all the way to the beginning of the universe.
Second, and more important, we don't actually know the causes of our actions. We think that we have thoughts, and then these thoughts lead to actions, but truthfully, we don't know where those thoughts themselves come from. They certainly don't come from us in any simple sense where we freely make them happen. You can't be aware of a thought before you're already thinking it, so there's no way to know that you cause them in a free way, and that thoughts aren't merely reactions to stimuli that affect us on a pre-conscious, pre-awareness level. Thoughts happen to us- that's as far as our awareness can go.
That being said, predetermination can't be true, as physicists have shown beyond Einstein. He argued that "God doesn't play dice with the universe," but he was wrong. Every new moment is completely new with respect to the past, and so real contingency, unpredictability, etc, are most definitely a part of existence at every level.
So maybe there's no human freedom as we understand it, but there's no fate, either.
For one, if we truly accept causality in a literal way, then every new moment and everything in it is the product of an immense causal chain that extends back into the past so far it's completely inconceivable to us, all the way to the beginning of the universe.
Second, and more important, we don't actually know the causes of our actions. We think that we have thoughts, and then these thoughts lead to actions, but truthfully, we don't know where those thoughts themselves come from. They certainly don't come from us in any simple sense where we freely make them happen. You can't be aware of a thought before you're already thinking it, so there's no way to know that you cause them in a free way, and that thoughts aren't merely reactions to stimuli that affect us on a pre-conscious, pre-awareness level. Thoughts happen to us- that's as far as our awareness can go.
That being said, predetermination can't be true, as physicists have shown beyond Einstein. He argued that "God doesn't play dice with the universe," but he was wrong. Every new moment is completely new with respect to the past, and so real contingency, unpredictability, etc, are most definitely a part of existence at every level.
So maybe there's no human freedom as we understand it, but there's no fate, either.
Nice read. I agree with much of what you say but disagree with the use of the word "unpredictability." I view the universe as one big ass continuous mathematical equation. From this view nothing really "changes." Because the change was already a part of the expression.
For example, at the miniature level: If I have a red dye, and blue dye...I know that in the future a mixture that equals purple has the potential to exist. But we know it has potential because we've seen this happen in the past. So all unpredictability really is unrealized potential. But this is only unrealized potential with respect to the individual. If we decipher the equation, we no longer guess its potential, but we guess the potential of the events that will lead to an "anticipated event" as well as the potential of events that may prevent the "anticipated event." (But even those events create multiple new equations within a matrix)
Lol so i say all that to say, who has the teachers edition of the universe
Oh and the small argument I usually use to refute free will with religious folks is:
- did Adam choose to obey Eve or disobey God
- (used by others) did Judas have a choice in betraying Jesus
- did Adam choose to obey Eve or disobey God
- (used by others) did Judas have a choice in betraying Jesus
Brown_Pride
All Star
Here's the thing...
Under the assumption that God is all knowing and well GOD NOTHING is impossible, even that which we might perceive as impossible; again this is working under the assumption that "God" is "the man"
Per the bible all things are possible through God, if you tell a mountain to jump into the sea with enough faith it will do so. (IMHO this is metaphorically used here)
I believe we have free will. I also believe God can see all outcomes of all things so while we might be able to choose what we want God knows...and perhaps in a way does not know...what it is we will choose to do.
If you believe in God you believe a few things.
1. God created man from dirt and such
2. God took a rib from man added it to dirt and poof a woman came.
3. God created the universe from nothign
4. GOd has always existed.
5. God set the the heavens in motion.
etc.
NOw i don't see how any single one of those things is possible but I believe that it was in fact done by God. IF I start off already believing the impossible (points 1-5) adding "faith vs predetermination = THE SAME THING (logically impossible to me) is not such a big deal. The thing is that there will be more things I don't understand about God than I do.
I've said it time and again, for a second just imagine (play the game here) God is real and he is God, the all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, master of all things. How does one go about trying to rationalize or "understand" his every whim?
Now if you don't believe in God at all then really the OP question isn't even answerable and i'm not entirely sure why someone would come in here.
Brown_Pride
All Star
artificial intelligence
Which when you think about it explains far to many fools on these boards.
