Did Jay-z really ruin Buddens career? Where did it go wrong for him?

[Rasille]

How would they have done that if the man couldn’t write a hit to save his life?

Joe didn’t need to write hits to save his life. Let Budden be Budden, Pump It Up worked because it was an element of who he was/is, he’s a ladies man. We know he’s a naturally charismatic, funny and witty guy, the elements were there, but they wanted him to be 50 Cent. Let him make the music he want then put it out there and let the people decide.

 

[Rasille]

Joe had a modest hit with this one.

 

[Conan]

Thats an insult to Nas.

“Nas” type rappers that were able to actually craft hit songs are Lupe Fiasco, Kendrick Lamar, and J.Cole. Budden was just a talented fukk up who leaned more into the fukking up than the talent.

Not gonna hold you, but when he referred to Nas I wasn't thinking about hits. I'm thinking introspective complex themes. That's Nas' strength. Not hits.

And in terms of that introspective style, I'd argue Joe beats both Lupe and J Cole.

 

[Ziggiy]

Not gonna hold you, but when he referred to Nas I wasn't thinking about hits. I'm thinking introspective complex themes. That's Nas' strength. Not hits.

And in terms of that introspective style, I'd argue Joe beats both Lupe and J Cole.

The point in Nas could do both. And to be a “star” with the full backing of a label like Def Jam in 2003 you needed to be able to do both, especially if you were a new artist like Budden

 

[Lurkio]

“gimme that beat fool ”




imagine your idol doing this to you instead of just doing an official remix

 

[Conan]

A lot of these answers are applying a lot of hindsight/later developments to the 02/03/04 period.

2003 is not yet this era you're speaking on.

All of this was after the initial period where he could've/should've blown up.

It had started by 2003 breh

It accelerated in the years following. But Joe himself admitted the labels were at a loss how to work with him in the Internet post-single era

Not saying he didn't sabo things himself

 

[Rasille]

Joe was a victim of the changing landscape of mainstream NY hip hop being phased out. Had he came out in 2001 or even 2009 he would’ve been better off.

 

[Shadow King]

It had started by 2003 breh

It accelerated in the years following. But Joe himself admitted the labels were at a loss how to work with him in the Internet post-single era

Not saying he didn't sabo things himself

It did not start in 2003. At minimum

50
TI
Kanye
Jeezy
Lupe
Ross

All blew up at varying degrees between 03-06. From 2006 on the point is valid.

 

[BK The Great]

Don’t forget he had this song that was everywhere on radio at the time too. Def Jam wanted him to succeed.

 

[Conan]

The point in Nas could do both. And to be a “star” with the full backing of a label like Def Jam in 2003 you needed to be able to do both, especially if you were a new artist like Budden

Eh

You're missing the point. I don't think Joe Budden is a hit maker (he never has been). If he came out today, that would have been fine. I think all the artists you mentioned would have been fukked if they came out in 2003.

It did not start in 2003. At minimum

50
TI
Kanye
Jeezy
Lupe
Ross

All blew up at varying degrees between 03-06. From 2006 on the point is valid.

I disagree to some extent

50: blackballed by major labels: Eminem and his strong mixtape game saved him
TI: Don't know enough will give you this one
Kanye: grandfathered in, was plugged in with Jay since '00
Jeezy: South, plugged into the streets
Lupe: got fukked by Atlantic after his debut
Ross: good counterexample

Apart from TI/Ross, all the others would have been fukked, barring their extenuating circumstances

Think of all the upcoming and legacy artists who's sales either plummeted or stalled around the 2003-06 period. Especially NY artists.

 

[pawdalaw]

A lot of these answers are applying a lot of hindsight/later developments to the 02/03/04 period.

2003 is not yet this era you're speaking on.

All of this was after the initial period where he could've/should've blown up.

I listed his track record of being a cornball (which he continues to add to as a non-rapper) to highlight the fact that it was self sabotage and not Jay who was responsible.

Most people think he is too weird to even check his music. A better lyricist than the migos but their debacle is a microcosm of how every generation after his views/treats him.

Let’s not forget about the slaughterhouse shyt either.

 

[Piff Perkins]

You saying Budden is a “Nas type” of rapper is definitely comparing him to Nas but in the context and argument of Budden’s writing ability, he was never able to consistently craft hits. Hell, he wasn’t even able to craft songs that could be argued SHOULD BE hits outside of maybe 2 on his debut (and thats being generous) whereas Nas was writing hits 10 years and 7 albums deep into his career.

He doesn't have as many hits as Jay or DMX but Nas has more hits than most other NY rappers (and rappers in general circa that era), To the contrary Joe literally only has one hit. We wouldn't be having this convo/thread if Joe was a Nas-like rapper hit wise, because he'd have multiple hits and no one would disagree with the comparison. Joe has less than 900k monthly listeners on Spotify and they're all listening to one song. Westside Gunn has zero hits and has 3x more monthly listeners, for reference.

Joe being from Jersey is ironic because I'm reminded of the Tony Soprano quote about feeling like he came into the game at the end. The party was over for NY rappers by that time on the mainstream level, besides 50 and Jay still having consistent hits. If you didn't put up numbers you weren't getting nice budgets on a sophomore album. We've now had decades of Joe telling his biased side of the story but I mean...if you were an exec and heard Gangsta Party would you greenlight it? Come on lol.

 

[Shadow King]

Eh

You're missing the point. I don't think Joe Budden is a hit maker (he never has been). If he came out today, that would have been fine. I think all the artists you mentioned would have been fukked if they came out in 2003.



I disagree to some extent

50: blackballed by major labels: Eminem and his strong mixtape game saved him
TI: Don't know enough will give you this one
Kanye: grandfathered in, was plugged in with Jay since '00
Jeezy: South, plugged into the streets
Lupe: got fukked by Atlantic after his debut
Ross: good counterexample

Apart from TI/Ross, all the others would have been fukked, barring their extenuating circumstances

Think of all the upcoming and legacy artists who's sales either plummeted or stalled around the 2003-06 period. Especially NY artists.

None of these are relevant to the idea that rappers in this 3 year stretch struggled to blow up.

I'm not sure how far back of a "legacy" you're looking at but the early to mid 00s had plenty of multi-platinum rappers. Nobody was struggling to sell due to the "fall of labels" yet. Those legacy artists simply had their time.

I listed his track record of being a cornball (which he continues to add to as a non-rapper) to highlight the fact that it was self sabotage and not Jay who was responsible.

Most people think he is too weird to even check his music. A better lyricist than the migos but their debacle is a microcosm of how every generation after his views/treats him.

All that is irrelevant and after the fact, by the late 00s his glass ceiling was already set. This is why I said too much retrospection is being used.

You can apply a bunch of after-the-fact fuçkery to Game and personal issues to artists in general, Game still had a successful career due to his initial blow up.

 

[Kidd Dibiase]

Def Jam put his single on a soundtrack before his album came out which kneecapped his album

Aside from that Joe ADMITTEDLY didn't wanna make the type of music Def Jam thought would sell for him, didn't like doing promo/media

 

[Awesome Wells]

Joe at his best is a good independent artist. His strengths are more suited for the mixtape lane, where he doesn’t have to follow typical song structure (10 minute songs, rapping for 5 min straights, no hooks, etc).

His beat selection is also better in that lane. It’s pretty poor when it comes to mainstream attempts.

This here.

Joe's shortcomings in music didn't have anything to do with Jay. People always want to blame Jay for every's rapper's fall.

Def Jam threw a lot of money at Joe for his first album. Dude had a ridiculous budget. But he didn't have the records to keep the attention of the people. When he dropped "Focus", NYC went crazy for it in clubs, but he never built on that. "Pump It Up" went crazy too, but not enough people bought the album. He got caught up in trying to transition to making records that popular artists were making at the time, but that's not the kind of MC he was. So it just looked like someone pretending.

I really think people don’t give audiences enough credit, when it comes to telling what's genuine and what's not. Joe was a dope writer and artist, but he wasn't meant to do big things in that mainstream lane. That's just not who he was. He was a phenomenal mixtape artist though. He also brought in his own friends to executive produce the album, and they had no business being behind that. He needed seasoned vets for that.