Developing Story: Obama Is Still A *****

[Constantine]

Aside from politics, are some of you familiar with what JFK did in WWII? He commanded a PT Boat that was heavily damaged and he and his crew had to swim for survival.



Motor Torpedo Boat PT-109 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That was a bad ass motherfukker.

His back got injured, and he had to be on pain medicine the rest of his life.

 

[No1]

It is totally logically sound. The train of thought involved in "supporting" a poltician is not "logical". That is why Legendnas said "I don't know why I cant explain it"

But I am comparing the New Deal as the integral part of FDR's administration to the Drone war as the integral part of Obama's administration, regardless as to what others think the consensus is. Maybe you may BELIEVE that Obama's "New Deal" in terms of significance is his 1994 Republican healthcare proposal... or maybe its his half assed tax cut based stimulus which had been done by previous presidents... or some other watered down corporatist distraction, but that is not the relationship I was making.

The "New Deal" is a legacy left by a president in FDR which is totally unprecedented in American history. Without even getting into the details about the scope and size of the New Deal, and whether I agree with it or not, we certainly agree that it was unprecedented and a more extreme version of wherever the idea had originated at the very least

If we consider Obama's 4 years, the only thing that he has done that is TOTALLY unprecedented is kill an American citizen without due cause, signature and double tap strikes, and worst of all give the military the right to detain an American citizen indefinitely without a trial.

So as far as your inference into my logic I would say that my question to @LegendNas was more of an emotional one... how can you support Obama but not his drone strikes? How could Django support his slavemaster but not his whip? How can I support the Lakers but not Kobe? It's not a logical reasoning question it's a question of rationalization

Your argument is slightly more persuasive given how you framed it, but your initial proposition was not logically sound. You're misinterpreting the laymen's way of using the word logical for how it is used in regards to formal logic. Your question to him was an appeal to emotion, but you still didn't fully develop that point.

But your questions do not help your proposition because they all have to deal with a lot of qualifying. As far as your Obama critiques, that your personal opinion, which is fine, but landmark changes only occur in landmark circumstances, in that regard the biggest failure of the Obama administration will be if this financial reform is weak and we have a repeat. But that's a bit off subject.

 

[Robbie3000]

Well, there was information of a surrender. In actuality, Japan had begun reaching out to the Soviets to talk of some sort of surrender. Initially, the US had been going to war against the Japanese without the Soviets because the Soviets and Japanese had signed some agreement (I forget) at the onset of the entire conflict. But Roosevelt and the USSR had quiet agreements about the USSR helping the US finish off Japan, which it was questionable if they could do alone, and agreements about stacking the deck in the USSR's favor in the Polish elections, etc. The thing is, FDR dies and Truman comes in who was not a party to any of these agreements, and at the time the US successfully tested it's nuclear technology so it no longer needed the USSR to finish off Japan. By dropping the bomb, they handled Japan without the USSR and kept Soviet influence out of the region because the surrender is then negotiated between the US and Japan and the Soviets are not a party to it. There is of course a bunch of other info that I'm not talking about, but yes, the US knew that Japan was going to fall back eventually. The means they used was just more expedient for them politically and economically (their Open Door policy).

Japan was looking for way out of the war and was ready to negotiate peace. They didn't want to give up their emperor whom they regarded as a demi god so they were looking to negotiate terms of surrender. The US was insisting on complete surrender because we had recently acquired the nuclear bomb and wanted to display our military superiority the Russians.

Also, Truman was a dikkhead.

 

[theworldismine13]

Japan was looking for way out of the war and was ready to negotiate peace. They didn't want to give up their emperor whom they regarded as a demi god so they were looking to negotiate terms of surrender. The US was insisting on complete surrender because we had recently acquired the nuclear bomb and wanted to display our military superiority the Russians.

Also, Truman was a dikkhead.

Unconditional surrender was the only real option any American president would have had, without unconditional surrender you would have a post wwi Germany type situation where you would have had some Japanese deluding themselves that maybe they can bring back the glory days, both Germany and japan had to have their political leadership and their army completely neutered for the rest of human history with not one chance of them ever rising again

Truman wasnt a dikkhead, he simply read the history of WWI

 

[Type Username Here]

One thing to add, Americans gave plenty of warning about dropping the nukes. Not saying it makes it better, I'm personally against the decision, but we need to be accurate.

The Americans bombarded multiple key cities with leaflets and radio signals warning of a devastating attack. Told people to get as far away as possible from the cities. Of course, the Japanese government thought it was propaganda and fear tactics, so they told everyone not to worry.

Here is what the message read:

"Read this carefully as it may save your life or the life of a relative or friend. In the next few days, some or all of the cities named on the reverse side will be destroyed by American bombs. These cities contain military installations and workshops or factories which produce military goods. We are determined to destroy all of the tools of the military clique which they are using to prolong this useless war. But, unfortunately, bombs have no eyes. So, in accordance with America's humanitarian policies, the American Air Force, which does not wish to injure innocent people, now gives you warning to evacuate the cities named and save your lives. America is not fighting the Japanese people but is fighting the military clique which has enslaved the Japanese people. The peace which America will bring will free the people from the oppression of the military clique and mean the emergence of a new and better Japan. You can restore peace by demanding new and good leaders who will end the war. We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked but some or all of them will be, so heed this warning and evacuate these cities immediately."

After the first bomb, the dropped more leaflets warning others:

America asks that you take immediate heed of what we say on this leaflet.We are in possession of the most destructive explosive ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate.
We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when just one atomic bomb fell on that city.

Before using this bomb to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, we ask that you now petition the Emperor to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better and peace-loving Japan.

You should take steps now to cease military resistance. Otherwise, we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.

WW2: America Warned Hiroshima and Nagasaki Citizens • Damn Interesting

 

[Robbie3000]

Unconditional surrender was the only real option any American president would have had, without unconditional surrender you would have a post wwi Germany type situation where you would have had some Japanese deluding themselves that maybe they can bring back the glory days, both Germany and japan had to have their political leadership and their army completely neutered for the rest of human history with not one chance of them ever rising again

Truman wasnt a dikkhead, he simply read the history of WWI

What i'm arguing is the use of atomic weapons was not because Japan dug it's heels and was unwilling to surrender and it was going to cost millions of US lives, It was because we wanted to flex our superior weaponry to the Soviets.

And Truman was a dikk head for not following the agreement FDR had made with Stalin which could have possibly avoided the Cold War.

 

[theworldismine13]

btw there is a movie coming out that is related to this, i posted about it

http://www.the-coli.com/higher-learning/81486-emperor-official-trailer.html#.UQbWZfJrT68

 

[theworldismine13]

What i'm arguing is the use of atomic weapons was not because Japan dug it's heels and was unwilling to surrender and it was going to cost millions of US lives, It was because we wanted to flex our superior weaponry to the Soviets.

And Truman was a dikk head for not following the agreement FDR had made with Stalin which could have possibly avoided the Cold War.

i think you are delusional, the only way japan would have surrendered is if the generals would have agreed to it, and imo they would only agree to it when american troops were landing on the main island or surrounding tokyo

and truman was right, anything less than unconditional surrender would have been unacceptable

as for stalin and the cold war, i think the cold war was inevitable, there was a huge power vacuum in europe, if you wanted to stop the cold war you simply could have let the russians fill in that vacuum and go back across the atlantic and mind our business, that would have stopped the cold war and we would have gotten along fine with the russians

 

[DEAD7]

If we consider Obama's 4 years, the only thing that he has done that is TOTALLY unprecedented is kill an American citizen without due cause, signature and double tap strikes, and worst of all give the military the right to detain an American citizen indefinitely without a trial.

The military already had the go ahead, they just had to lie before.

 

[Robbie3000]

i think you are delusional, the only way japan would have surrendered is if the generals would have agreed to it, and imo they would only agree to it when american troops were landing on the main island or surrounding tokyo

and truman was right, anything less than unconditional surrender would have been unacceptable

as for stalin and the cold war, i think the cold war was inevitable, there was a huge power vacuum in europe, if you wanted to stop the cold war you simply could have let the russians fill in that vacuum and go back across the atlantic and mind our business, that would have stopped the cold war and we would have gotten along fine with the russians

Your understanding of history is shallow and one sided. You look at world events from American tainted lenses.

1. Japan was ready to surrender. They just didn't want to give up the Emperor - who is a religious figure to them.

2. The Russians had an agreement with FDR to keep hold on to some Eastern European territories as a buffer against Germany. Which had attacked them twice. By reneging on this deal, Truman basically increased the soviets mistrust of the US and kicked off the arms race by detonating those atomic bombs in Japan. Thus putting the security and future of mankind in jeopardy for 50 years.

 

[Type Username Here]

Your understanding of history is shallow and one sided. You look at world events from American tainted lenses.

1. Japan was ready to surrender. They just didn't want to give up the Emperor - who is a religious figure to them.

2. The Russians had an agreement with FDR to keep hold on to some Eastern European territories as a buffer against Germany. Which had attacked them twice. By reneging on this deal, Truman basically increased the soviets mistrust of the US and kicked off the arms race by detonating those atomic bombs in Japan. Thus putting the security and future of mankind in jeopardy for 50 years.

Ehh, I don't know about the bold.

Detente was a successful because both superpowers wanted to avert M.A.D.

Lots of people make the argument that Nuclear Weapons actually saved lives in the long run, as it prevented a massive war between the United States and the Soviet Union.

 

[theworldismine13]

Your understanding of history is shallow and one sided. You look at world events from American tainted lenses.

1. Japan was ready to surrender. They just didn't want to give up the Emperor - who is a religious figure to them.

2. The Russians had an agreement with FDR to keep hold on to some Eastern European territories as a buffer against Germany. Which had attacked them twice. By reneging on this deal, Truman basically increased the soviets mistrust of the US and kicked off the arms race by detonating those atomic bombs in Japan. Thus putting the security and future of mankind in jeopardy for 50 years.

1. Well i already responded to this, the emperor had to surrender so that imperial japan would die forever

2. Yawn, shyt was gonna go down anyway, lol @ trusting stalin to stop at buffer states, foh

 

[MeachTheMonster]

so what I'm reading here is Nuclear bombs=ok but drone strikes= wrong

 

[Robbie3000]

Ehh, I don't know about the bold.

Detente was a successful because both superpowers wanted to avert M.A.D.

Lots of people make the argument that Nuclear Weapons actually saved lives in the long run, as it prevented a massive war between the United States and the Soviet Union.

Maybe in the US and Soviet union where the war was cold. Not so much for much of the world where proxy wars resulted in the deaths of millions.

 

[Robbie3000]

1. Well i already responded to this, the emperor had to surrender so that imperial japan would die forever

2. Yawn, shyt was gonna go down anyway, lol @ trusting stalin

you are ex-military right? Makes sense.