California State lawmakers pass K-12 transgender-rights bill

[MeachTheMonster]

Devastating arguments. I guess I was wrong.



You bring up an important point- how do we know that it's not just a phase? Well, one thing we know for sure at this point is that the earlier true trans kids transition, the fewer problems they have later on, which is what I was getting at with my mention of research, so it's important to take the child's claims seriously, even if they are young. Now that doesn't mean any gender-nonconformity displayed at that age should be treated like a sign of trans identity, and that's an important distinction to make. A boy wanting to try on his mother's jewelry once or twice doesn't mean he's going to be trans, or even generally effeminate. But a boy persistently claiming that he feels like a girl over a longer period of time might be. The research we have now suggests that gender identity is well-formed enough between the ages of 2 and 4 that a boy or girl repeatedly claiming to feel like the other gender at that age will probably be trans, and the percentage of kids at that age for whom it ends up being a phase is very low (in the single digits, I believe- I'll try and find the cite when I have time,) so the time needed to determine it isn't on the order of several years, but less.

Usually, it's best to consult with a psych, even better if it's someone who specializes in gender identity issues. I would tend to trust their diagnoses.




Yes, they are kids. But as I said, all the research we have currently states that human gender identity is well-formed enough between the ages of 2 and 4 to define them for the rest of their lives. See my response to onedeen for that and how to determine who has a gender identity issue. And also remember, since you brought up sexuality, that trans identity and gender identity in general have nothing to do with sexuality- they aren't sexual orientations, but gender identities, so this isn't a matter of forcing kids into sexuality too young. We all knew how we felt in terms of gender long before we knew about or were thinking about sex and sexual orientations.

As for boys sneaking into the girls' locker room- people don't mysteriously become trans as teenagers, without a longer history of gender non-conforming behavior, so that's one way to tell a person is lying. The other is simply that they would have to present like a girl all the time, not just when it came to the locker room. How many non-trans men do you know who would be willing to act like and call themselves a girl all the time just to get a few minutes every week in a girls' locker room, especially in a viciously judgmental middle or high school environment? That's not a trade off I or any of the other dudes I knew back then would make. The social repercussions to presenting yourself as the opposite gender are serious- you get treated like shyt. People generally aren't going to publicly identify as the opposite gender unless it's absolutely essential to their sense of self.

And lastly, my comment about folk-mythology is relevant. I'm not saying that people whose sex and gender match up are misinformed- why would I do that? Examples of folk mythology in this case would be people saying things like "a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl and that's that"- nature just isn't that simple. We can't live in denial as a society when all the evidence is in front of us that there are some people who really feel like the opposite, and that it isn't a mental illness (as illness is scientifically defined.)

In my opinion it opens up too many "what if's" a person can claim they identify with the other gender and not show many overt outside characteristics. It's discriminative to tell someone they are not gender opposite enough to warrant their use of the girls bathroom.

What about the people who go back and forth. They don't have to be lying, they could just be confused. Do we let them switch bathrooms back in forth until they make up their mind? If yes then that allows room for people to lie just to get in the opposite bathroom then change back once they are done. If no then that is discriminative against the people who might of taken longer in their life to realize what they really wanted to do.

It's a bunch of fukkary that shouldn't be going on in schools. If they want to be friendly to transgendered kids they should open a gender neutral bathroom. Kids could choose to use it on their own rather they'd like to use the bathroom and they wouldn't have to declare their sexuality/orientation.

 

[Mowgli]

So parents dont have the right to say they dont want men in the womans room. What if one of these trannies decides he likes p*ssy that day and rapes one of these girls. What if one of these girls is traumatized by seeing a penis in the locker room. White people, taking the country down the drain one homo at a time. Unable to clean their own house they make excuses for cosigning filth.

A boy is now going to be competing against girls on sports teams? This shyt is ridiculous. Are they going to attack the college level next when one of these queens is asking to be recognized as a man so they can face female tennis players? A man on the girls volleyball team.

What prevents a man from filling a lawsuit saying its discrimination to allow a man to be on a girls team just because he says hes a girl.

 

[The Real]

In my opinion it opens up too many "what if's" a person can claim they identify with the other gender and not show many overt outside characteristics. It's discriminative to tell someone they are not gender opposite enough to warrant their use of the girls bathroom.

The reason this shouldn't be a problem is that we're talking about gender. If someone identifies as a man inside, then they're going to want to present as a man on the outside. There might be men who present more effeminate and women who present more masculine who aren't trans (they could be homosexual, or that could just be how they are,) but you won't find people who are openly trans and don't outwardly present and display their inner gender identity.

I don't think it's discriminative to tell someone that they aren't cleared for use of the girls' bathroom, because all that has to be demonstrated is that there is actual trans identity at work.

What about the people who go back and forth. They don't have to be lying, they could just be confused. Do we let them switch bathrooms back in forth until they make up their mind? If yes then that allows room for people to lie just to get in the opposite bathroom then change back once they are done. If no then that is discriminative against the people who might of taken longer in their life to realize what they really wanted to do.

That's a good question. The back and forth thing almost never happens, according to research. Gender identity is relatively stable. I would say if they seem confused, we shouldn't necessarily let them switch bathrooms at whim.

It's a bunch of fukkary that shouldn't be going on in schools. If they want to be friendly to transgendered kids they should open a gender neutral bathroom. Kids could choose to use it on their own rather they'd like to use the bathroom and they wouldn't have to declare their sexuality/orientation.

That's one option, yes, but that's ultimately a segregating solution, since there's no argument for kids on this front that couldn't apply to adults. So this would lead to 3rd bathrooms everywhere, and the result would be that integration wouldn't happen, which would defeat the purpose of recognizing trans people at all. The gender dysphoria comes with not being able to live according to what they experience themselves as inside- any solution that prevents them from doing that isn't really a solution since it doesn't address that root issue.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

Why is this not a problem in other countries who educate their children better than we do ours?

Why are we preoccupying ourselves with this filth when kids out here can't even read, write, or do simple math?

 

[MeachTheMonster]

The reason this shouldn't be a problem is that we're talking about gender. If someone identifies as a man inside, then they're going to want to present as a man on the outside. There might be men who present more effeminate and women who present more masculine who aren't trans (they could be homosexual, or that could just be how they are,) but you won't find people who are openly trans and don't outwardly present and display their inner gender identity.

I don't think it's discriminative to tell someone that they aren't cleared for use of the girls' bathroom, because all that has to be demonstrated is that there is actual trans identity at work.

Again each case is different. A boy who identifies as a girl may walk around in a skirt, or he may wear jeans and still want to play football. Where do we draw the line as to who can/can't switch bathrooms?

That's a good question. The back and forth thing almost never happens, according to research. Gender identity is relatively stable. I would say if they seem confused, we shouldn't necessarily let them switch bathrooms at whim.

Their identity may not actually switch but their own understanding of that can and does switch all the time. Do we say you can only switch bathrooms once? Or you have to sign a contract at the beginning of the year declaring which bathroom you want to use? What about transgendered people who don't want to switch bathrooms and then change their mind? What about the ones who decide the opposite bathroom isn't all it's cracked up to be, can they switch back?

How do we prevent abuse of the system? How will students/teachers/staff know who should and shouldn't be in the opposite bathroom? Wouldn't some type of "certified transgendered" ID be more discriminative than just telling them to use the bathroom of their born sex?

That's one option, yes, but that's ultimately a segregating solution, since there's no argument for kids on this front that couldn't apply to adults. So this would lead to 3rd bathrooms everywhere, and the result would be that integration wouldn't happen, which would defeat the purpose of recognizing trans people at all. The gender dysphoria comes with not being able to live according to what they experience themselves as inside- any solution that prevents them from doing that isn't really a solution since it doesn't address that root issue.

There should be 3rd bathrooms everywhere. As much as they deserve to be treated fairly, transgendered people are very "unique" when compared to normal(and I don't mean that in a bad way) people. They have unique wants, needs, concerns, uses for the bathroom. That's why male and female bathrooms are separate. Should we just throw out the idea of sex/gender altogether?

 

[The Real]

Again each case is different. A boy who identifies as a girl may walk around in a skirt, or he may wear jeans and still want to play football. Where do we draw the line as to who can/can't switch bathrooms?

The line is drawn at actual identity, like I said before. There are non-trans girls who wear jeans, and who play football, yet they are still identifiably and identify as girls. Presentation in terms of clothes or haircuts is unreliable yes, and in that case, you'd be forced into positions like not allowing lesbians into girls' locker rooms, for example, but presentation in terms of publicly declared and lived gender identity isn't.

Their identity may not actually switch but their own understanding of that can and does switch all the time. Do we say you can only switch bathrooms once? Or you have to sign a contract at the beginning of the year declaring which bathroom you want to use? What about transgendered people who don't want to switch bathrooms and then change their mind? What about the ones who decide the opposite bathroom isn't all it's cracked up to be, can they switch back?

Those are good questions. As I'm not a policy expert here, I don't have a clear answer for that, but I think there are already solutions being attempted at different schools around the world. We'd have to study them and see what works best.

How do we prevent abuse of the system? How will students/teachers/staff know who should and shouldn't be in the opposite bathroom? Wouldn't some type of "certified transgendered" ID be more discriminative than just telling them to use the bathroom of their born sex?

Like I said, abuse is easy to prevent, and maybe the easiest part of the whole process. Teachers know the students. In general, it's pretty easy to know who is a trans person and who isn't. And people wouldn't abuse the system for the reasons I mentioned already- living like a trans person is not easy and the social consequences are dire. I don't know a single regular dude who would pretend to be a trans woman in public just to get a few peeks at women in bathrooms or locker rooms.

There's no need for an ID.

There should be 3rd bathrooms everywhere. As much as they deserve to be treated fairly, transgendered people are very "unique" when compared to normal(and I don't mean that in a bad way) people. They have unique wants, needs, concerns, uses for the bathroom. That's why male and female bathrooms are separate. Should we just throw out the idea of sex/gender altogether?

Yes, 3rd bathrooms would be ok, but not as transgender bathrooms- they'd have to be unisex bathrooms. However, this wouldn't solve the problem completely, as again, the issue of men's and women's bathrooms would have to be addressed and standards set for those eventually, too.

I don't think we should throw out the idea of sex/gender altogether, because they approximate real phenomena, which is part of the point, as I think you recognize- transgenderism is a very real phenomenon.

 

[Danie84]

...but funding for extra-curriculum and after school programs get repeatedly thrown in the bushes

 

[MeachTheMonster]

The line is drawn at actual identity, like I said before. There are non-trans girls who wear jeans, and who play football, yet they are still identifiably and identify as girls. Presentation in terms of clothes or haircuts is unreliable yes, and in that case, you'd be forced into positions like not allowing lesbians into girls' locker rooms, for example, but presentation in terms of publicly declared and lived gender identity isn't.

Even with publicly declared identeties you still have a problem. Should female students have to compete against male students in sports competitions? What if its a male that identifies as female, and wants to use the girls bathroom, but he still wants to play on the male sports teams?

Those are good questions. As I'm not a policy expert here, I don't have a clear answer for that, but I think there are already solutions being attempted at different schools around the world. We'd have to study them and see what works best.

I wouldn't want my kids to go to one of the test dummie schools.

Like I said, abuse is easy to prevent, and maybe the easiest part of the whole process. Teachers know the students. In general, it's pretty easy to know who is a trans person and who isn't. And people wouldn't abuse the system for the reasons I mentioned already- living like a trans person is not easy and the social consequences are dire. I don't know a single regular dude who would pretend to be a trans woman in public just to get a few peeks at women in bathrooms or locker rooms.

There's no need for an ID.

You may not know them but there are perverts EVERYWHERE and they do much more drastic things than acting gay in order to feed their perversions. I don't want to have to wonder if the dude that just followed my daughter into the bathroom is being genuine about his sexuality or not. Hell I can't even go into the bathroom with her. In my opinion that opens everyone up for more problems and fukkary. And the 3 rd bathroom option offers a simple descrete alternative.

Yes, 3rd bathrooms would be ok, but not as transgender bathrooms- they'd have to be unisex bathrooms. However, this wouldn't solve the problem completely, as again, the issue of men's and women's bathrooms would have to be addressed and standards set for those eventually, too.

I don't think we should throw out the idea of sex/gender altogether, because they approximate real phenomena, which is part of the point, as I think you recognize- transgenderism is a very real phenomenon.

Men and women's bathrooms should be left alone. (Are we gonna start puting urinals in female bathrooms)And a unisex bathroom should be added. This would keep everyone safe and happy, and it would allow them to do what they want to do.

 

[The Real]

Even with publicly declared identeties you still have a problem. Should female students have to compete against male students in sports competitions? What if its a male that identifies as female, and wants to use the girls bathroom, but he still wants to play on the male sports teams?

Trans male students should be able to compete against male students if they're within the hormonal and muscular parameters of men such that they get past tryouts, like anywhere else, where small or non-athletic born males get filtered out the same way. There are already precedents for this kind of thing, and once again, the scientific research on the subject proves that trans people with hormonal treatments can reach the muscle and bone density of born males or females. And even besides that, there are already unisex sports leagues for various age groups through and outside of schools at which these things have never been problems.

I wouldn't want my kids to go to one of the test dummie schools.

You don't have to send them to one.

You may not know them but there are perverts EVERYWHERE and they do much more drastic things than acting gay in order to feed their perversions. I don't want to have to wonder if the dude that just followed my daughter into the bathroom is being genuine about his sexuality or not. Hell I can't even go into the bathroom with her. In my opinion that opens everyone up for more problems and fukkary. And the 3 rd bathroom option offers a simple descrete alternative.

Again- how many teenage boys have you met in your life, or even grown men, who are willing to spend all their time in public presenting as and declaring themselves a woman just in order to get into womens' bathrooms or locker rooms? I'm sorry, but of all the questions you've raised, this is the most illogical one of all and not a serious concern for the reasons I've already mentioned. Furthermore, there is no mass documentation of such a phenomenon- if what you're saying is true, there should be.

Men and women's bathrooms should be left alone. (Are we gonna start puting urinals in female bathrooms)And a unisex bathroom should be added. This would keep everyone safe and happy, and it would allow them to do what they want to do.

Of course we don't need to put urinals in female bathrooms. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. But to deny trans women access to female bathrooms altogether, in every stage of life, is not a solution- it's segregation that doesn't solve the problems of trans people, especially if they've already integrated completely in every other way.

 

[Pool_Shark]

It's wrong the worse part is letting transgender kids play sports on whatever team they want. I mean these kids aren't even taking supplements to turn them into the opposite sex and they're still gonna be able to
play on women's teams its ridiculous. Some of those girls get scholarships from sports but all of them will get taken by boys in dresses. Sometimes you gotta put your foot down and say no.

 

[kevm3]

man you already know this will result in more male crossdressers ending up in the domain of females than vice versa. more men are going to want to be in a female locker room than a woman in a male locker room or bathroom. the scary thing about it for women is that just because a negro wears a skirt doesn't mean that he doesn't want to knock a woman down. it doesn't mean he's definitely interested in other men... so you got one of these crossdressing men in the women locker room or bathroom getting turned on because he's seeing women stripped down... the scary thing is that bathrooms don't have cameras and he has access to women with no oversight. that's not a pretty situation. i really wouldn't be surprised if something like this was used to eventually justify cameras in the the bathrooms as well. 'well we are doing it for the student's safety.'

 

[CACtain Planet]

Trannie Agenda is real brehs

 

[Supercoolmayo]

Did they legalize weed yet?