Black People And Capitalism DON'T Mix

[JahFocus CS]

Did you read what you linked?

Creating unions and organizing unions in a capitalist economy is similar to mass production in a social economy how? Not only are all the examples on a small scale but many of those countries subsidized their economies by raping the third world. You have yet to explain the incentive of highly educated, highly skilled people to work in the unfavorable conditions that come with working these kinds of jobs (power plants, rice fields, sweatshops)? Its like you lack any understanding of basic human psychology. And ironically, any technique that can sustain 7 billion people is a product of innovation spurred by capitalism.

fukk's sake. I can't teach you how to read and I'm not going to do all the research for you. I gave you one possibility. Many of the possibilities for large-scale production rely on the principle of federalism. If that doesn't satisfy you and/or you don't want to do additional research on your own, then it is what it is

I'm not concerned with petit bourgeois and bourgeois elements. On the question of abolishing chattel slavery, I wouldn't ask what the incentive for slaveholders was . Many highly educated and skilled people are working class, and they're experiencing downward mobility and working jobs that don't even require a college degree thanks to the crisis of capitalism in the 21st century

It is capitalism that creates this particular historical class conflict between the working class and the bourgeoisie. Industrial socialism is the response to the conditions of capitalism and the logical resolution of the contradiction in the material interest of the working class.

Most Marxists would argue that capitalism is a necessary step in material development before (industrial) socialism is possible. After all, there would be no working class or bourgeoisie without capitalism. Capitalism is a system that is more materially productive than hunting/gathering, non-industrial agriculture, and feudalism. That isn't debatable. The system played a historical role in global development. But for the working class (and the planet), it is a dead end.

 

[Poitier]

fukk's sake. I can't teach you how to read and I'm not going to do all the research for you. I gave you one possibility. Many of the possibilities for large-scale production rely on the principle of federalism.

I'm not concerned with petit bourgeois and bourgeois elements. On the question of abolishing chattel slavery, I wouldn't ask what the incentive for slaveholders was . Many highly educated and skilled people are working class, and they're experiencing downward mobility and working jobs that don't even require a college degree thanks to the crisis of capitalism in the 21st century

It is capitalism that creates this particular historical class conflict between the working class and the bourgeoisie. Industrial socialism is the response to the conditions of capitalism and the logical resolution of the contradiction in the material interest of the working class.

Most Marxists would argue that capitalism is a necessary step in material development before (industrial) socialism is possible. After all, there would be no working class or bourgeoisie without capitalism. Capitalism is a system that is more materially productive than hunting/gathering, non-industrial agriculture, and feudalism. That isn't debatable. The system played a historical role in global development. But for the working class (and the planet), it is a dead end.

This literally addressed none of what I said

 

[JahFocus CS]

This literally addressed none of what I said

Be unable to read brehs

 

[Poitier]

Be unable to read brehs

I did and all you do is duck and dodge

Most Marxists would argue that capitalism is a necessary step in material development before (industrial) socialism is possible.

Really fam?

 

[Poitier]

Capitalism is a system that is more materially productive than hunting/gathering, non-industrial agriculture, and feudalism. That isn't debatable.

If you know this then surely you can see why socialism can't support 7 billion people


Oh wait, "industrial socialism"

 

[JahFocus CS]

Really fam?

You don't have an understanding of class analysis, socialism/communism, or Marxist thought at all, although you front like you do.

A basic tenet that Marx uncovered and properly formulated was historical materialism and the material stages that societies and humanity go through. To give you a base understanding to work with so that you might continue in this conversation, you can read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_history. It isn't perfect, but perhaps you'll get the idea. Many countries tried going straight from ingrained feudalism/feudalist practices to socialism... they had no working class and no industry, or very low development of both.

 

[JahFocus CS]

If you know this then surely you can see why socialism can't support 7 billion people


Oh wait, "industrial socialism"

How many people is capitalism supporting? A few tens of millions that make up the bourgeoisie.

Everyone else (the working class) is having wealth withheld from them and taken from them in the form of surplus value.

 

[Poitier]

You don't have an understanding of class analysis, socialism/communism, or Marxist thought at all, although you front like you do.

A basic tenet that Marx uncovered and properly formulated was historical materialism and the material stages that societies and humanity go through. To give you a base understanding to work with so that you might continue in this conversation, you can read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_history. It isn't perfect, but perhaps you'll get the idea. Many countries tried going straight from ingrained feudalism/feudalist practices to socialism... they had no working class and no industry, or very low development of both.

Stop redirecting me to irrelevant links and explain how a global social economy is supporting 7 billion people

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

So your position is that people need the threat of starvation and death constantly hanging over their heads for us to have innovation...?

Yep. Unless you think people cure diseases that don't exist or answer questions they didnt they had

How many potential innovations are lost because of people dying of hunger, inability to get an education, or even working in socially unproductive or otherwise undesirable (for those individuals) sectors and functions?

fewer than those answered by capitalist societies

There were some articles written on the large number of highly educated graduates going into finance, sucking talent out of things like engineering and medicine.

Sure. People chase money as an incentive. Whats your argument? Central planning isn't going to make the latter more attractive.

Partly due to the extraordinary increases in tuition in the resultant student loan crisis (students go where pay is highest, not necessarily where they want to work... or even what they have the most skill and aptitude for).

So? But I bet you won't address physicians pursuing more specialties over general practice

Because capitalism is the root issue. I am not interested in piecemeal scraps or band-aids.

Its not. People will pursue interests that benefit themselves...and I have no problem with that. There is a tangential gain we all benefit from when some individuals focus on themselves as well

You can read this for more context and information, particularly the 5th-to-last paragraph.

I'm not reading that shyt. Its absurd to even give difference to.

Slavery was controversial at the time, but it was a firmly entrenched institution. No one really saw it going anywhere in the near future. Yes, the Civil War was the final outcome of the controversy because the contradictions of the institution of slavery tore it apart at the seams, after 300 years.

I don't respect slavery analogies.

Who decided that socialism is not the alternative? This is just like saying, oh, slavery wasn't abolished by 1800, so that shows that emancipation was not the alternative ("maybe just a gentler form of slavery is the solution. Stop whipping slaves and there won't be any class conflict between the slaveholders and the enslaved. It's the best that we can hope for!"). You're taking an arbitrary point in time (2014) and making this the end of history. History waxes and wanes. If the contradictions are still there, they will exacerbate and calm at various times throughout history. But they will have to be resolved at some point because the problems they cause will keep cropping up...

Stop with these dumbass metaphors. Its insulting to your intelligence and to my autonomy.

And we're arguing for mixed economies that have more interest in capitalist organizations.

I mean, you can call it what you want. I defined socialism/communism earlier as worker's control of enterprises. If there's something out there that gets rid of the fundamental contradiction in capitalism (exploitation of workers through the extraction of surplus value) that isn't what I described and no one has thought of it yet ()... then okay. Maybe that is what will take hold and handle this class contradiction.

Workers always get exploited. Too bad. You can't get rid of that because you can't acknowledge that all jobs aren't equal

The choice is between socialism and barbarism and everyday now we see the world getting more barbaric, more people suffering and dying as the contradictions of capitalism become more exacerbated. You can say "your ideas are old" until you're blue in the face, but class analysis of history and society is as scientific and correct as social science gets. Newton and Einstein's ideas are also old. Doesn't mean they're wrong . People come into conflict over resources and you can identify distinct classes based on their relationship to the means of production. You can also identify their material interests based on this relationship and explain and predict behavior from it.

I work harder than you, and I think I deserve to make more money than you to have more access to more resources than you.

When you have the degrees I have and the skills i've developed, maybe you can try and garner more for yourself.

 

[Poitier]

How many people is capitalism supporting? A few tens of millions that make up the bourgeoisie.

Everyone else (the working class) is having wealth withheld from them and taken from them in the form of surplus value.

And this allows for an underclass that can produce things en masse. There is NO incentive for this if everyone owns the wealth they generate.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

How many people is capitalism supporting? A few tens of millions that make up the bourgeoisie.

Everyone else (the working class) is having wealth withheld from them and taken from them in the form of surplus value.

More than socialism.

I don't know why you think socialism is equal. It benefits those in the government EVEN MORE. Thats the point. ...or the problem rather.

 

[DEAD7]

How many people is capitalism supporting? A few tens of millions that make up the bourgeoisie.

You really don't see the high quality of life capitalism has produced in America for everyone?

Granted it isn't equal, but to turn a blind eye to the high quality of life afforded here in the states under capitalism is a bit much...





I'd go even further and argue our wealth enables us to give and support other nations(I believe we give more than any other nation on the planet) as well as provide military protection allowing them to focus on social issues.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

advocate for bread lines, brehs

 

[theworldismine13]

So your position is that people need the threat of starvation and death constantly hanging over their heads for us to have innovation...?

How many potential innovations are lost because of people dying of hunger, inability to get an education, or even working in socially unproductive or otherwise undesirable (for those individuals) sectors and functions? There were some articles written on the large number of highly educated graduates going into finance, sucking talent out of things like engineering and medicine. Partly due to the extraordinary increases in tuition in the resultant student loan crisis (students go where pay is highest, not necessarily where they want to work... or even what they have the most skill and aptitude for).

my position is that capitalism provides a higher standard of living compared to socialism, i have no idea what the hell you are babbling about

Because capitalism is the root issue. I am not interested in piecemeal scraps or band-aids.

yeah that is what karl marx said 100 years ago and his solutions and ideas turned out to be worse than capitalism

You can read this for more context and information, particularly the 5th-to-last paragraph.

you can read the history of the USSR, communist china and north korea if you want more info about socialism being implemented

Slavery was controversial at the time, but it was a firmly entrenched institution. No one really saw it going anywhere in the near future. Yes, the Civil War was the final outcome of the controversy because the contradictions of the institution of slavery tore it apart at the seams, after 300 years.

the issue of slavery was never settled as can be seen by by the banning of the slave trade, the Missouri compromise and "Bleeding Kansas'

its apparent you dont even know basic american history but that isnt surprising since apparently you dont even know the history of the 20th century

Who decided that socialism is not the alternative?

i did

Who decided that socialism is not the alternative? This is just like saying, oh, slavery wasn't abolished by 1800, so that shows that emancipation was not the alternative ("maybe just a gentler form of slavery is the solution. Stop whipping slaves and there won't be any class conflict between the slaveholders and the enslaved. It's the best that we can hope for!"). You're taking an arbitrary point in time (2014) and making this the end of history. History waxes and wanes. If the contradictions are still there, they will exacerbate and calm at various times throughout history. But they will have to be resolved at some point because the problems they cause will keep cropping up...

nothing you are saying changes the fact that just about every socialist country of the 20th century collapsed and was forced to abandon it

the only people advocating socialism are a couple of diehards like yourself

I mean, you can call it what you want. I defined socialism/communism earlier as worker's control of enterprises. If there's something out there that gets rid of the fundamental contradiction in capitalism (exploitation of workers through the extraction of surplus value) that isn't what I described and no one has thought of it yet ()... then okay. Maybe that is what will take hold and handle this class contradiction.

The choice is between socialism and barbarism and everyday now we see the world getting more barbaric, more people suffering and dying as the contradictions of capitalism become more exacerbated. You can say "your ideas are old" until you're blue in the face, but class analysis of history and society is as scientific and correct as social science gets. Newton and Einstein's ideas are also old. Doesn't mean they're wrong . People come into conflict over resources and you can identify distinct classes based on their relationship to the means of production. You can also identify their material interests based on this relationship and explain and predict behavior from it.

the choice isnt between socialism and barbarism, socialism pretty much died with the end of the USSR and of communist china

the choice is between different types of capitalism and improvements on capitalism

there is no reason for black people to chose a system that brought us decrepit collapsed, countries like the USSR, communist china, north korea, cuba, tanzania and venezuela, all of which are economic basket cases and found themselves unable to compete with western capitalism

 

[DEAD7]

there is no reason for black people to chose a system that brought us decrepit collapsed, countries like the USSR, communist china, north korea, cuba, tanzania and venezuela, all of which are economic basket cases and found themselves unable to compete with western capitalism

Talk to this niqqa!!!!!!!