Big Dave Meltzer Appreciation Thread

[stro]

I've certainly watched more eps of Impact in the last year than Raw and SD combined (as in I didn't watch ANY Raw and SDs, I jumped in live for Roman's cancer announcement and I watched the opening segment of Raw after WM last year). Su Yung is fukking terrible though and everything associated with her has been garbage even if it is creative and unusual for a wrestling show. Lmao at them straight up using a Freddy Krueger replica glove, completely unaltered. Bought that bytch for $35 off Amazon.

 

[Honga Ciganesta]

Some interesting notes from the Invasion era. Damn, Buff took an amount of L's in a short period of time

The first impression of WCW, in the most important angle in the history of the business, on 7/2 in Tacoma, was downright scary to the point re-evaluation of the current plans have to be considered. The live crowd totally rejected the Booker T vs. Buff Bagwell match, put on as the Raw main event. One can blame Bagwell for putting on a bad performance and T for also not rising to the occasion, but the crowd had already decided to hate it long before the bell rang to start the match. Loud chants of "boring," "This match sucks" and "Goldberg" filled the Tacoma Dome, as the crowd booed every move by both wrestlers. Fights broke out in the stands, and a large percentage of the crowd was streaming toward the exits while the main event was going on. Chants then started of "refund" and "end the match" with the only positive pop coming with what would normally be a groan spot, when Austin and Angle did a run-in to end the main event in only 5:00.

Fans booed Shane McMahon when he came out, with new lighting and the new look for WCW when it takes over the Raw time slot, if plans continue as they are, and nothing had changed at press time, it is no doubt something that will be talked about a lot later in the week. The match, with Booker, defending his WCW title and also still billed as U.S. champion (he held both belts when the actual WCW promotion folded in late March) was poor, ending with a big babyface pop for top WWF heels Steve Austin and Kurt Angle. Bagwell then joined in on the attack with announcers Arn Anderson and Scott Hudson trying their best to act like their co-worker was a turncoat to the organization, but it just came across way too forced. Even though Austin and Angle were heels the entire show, they got the biggest face reactions as they beat on Booker, three-on-one, and then threw him out of the building. They got a second face reaction when they turned on Bagwell, laid him out, and threw him out of the building as well. This program is being booked ass backwards, as WCW, the invaders, have gotten their asses kicked at almost every turn.

The locker room dynamics have changed greatly over the past week. The descriptions to me sound identical to what I heard in 1987 when the Bill Watts guys and Jim Crockett guys became one company. The Crockett guys wouldn't accept any of the Watts guys as stars and you know how that ended up. In this case, there is resentment of the WWF guys because the WCW guys have gotten paid since the end of March even though they just are starting on the road this week. There is a feeling that some of the WCW guys (read that the inexperienced guys who never worked any territories and learned wrestling in that horrible WCW atmosphere) walk around the locker room really cocky. The biggest heat was on Booker, Stacey Keibler, Bagwell, Palumbo and O'Haire. The word is that all of the younger members of that quintet have zero knowledge as to locker room protocol, etiquette and how to conduct themselves. From a management standpoint, there seems to be the knowledge that most of the guys are simply inexperienced and the only one that seems to have significant heat is Bagwell, who had made a lot of enemies with his attitude even before making such an inauspicious television debut. About two dozen of the WCW guys were brought to Connecticut all week to train in the larger WWF rings to get the rust off before appearing live on television. Bagwell was late for every session, and then arrived late for the house show in Spokane. While in WCW, where there was almost zero discipline, he could get away with it, that doesn't fly here. During the week, while Shane Helms was training, the two got into an altercation. The story was reported as Bagwell (who along with Luger while in WCW used to laugh at the cruiserweights behind their backs and joke that they were the problem with the company--there's a story that one time after Malenko had a great match with someone and people were all coming up to him congratulating him, Bagwell went up to him and made fun of him saying that this business isn't about having great matches, it's about having a great body) telling Helms that no matter what he did, he'd never make it in wrestling because he was too small. Helms came back saying with the obvious steroid retort. Bagwell slapped him. Helms came back and hit Bagwell with something filled with ice and busted him up, requiring stitches, before it was quelled. In the MSG beating of Palumbo & O'Haire, a little extra was put into it by some guys as a lesson. There was also the obvious heat with Booker, both because of the feeling he didn't protect Austin in the PPV spot, but also because he didn't stay at the Gorilla position after he went through the curtain to check on Austin

Bagwell was fired before Nitro in Atlanta. He was let go for an amazing ability to accumulate heat in almost record time. This was for all the reasons mentioned last week as well as some others. There was the issue with Helms reported on last week, which left him with some stitches, and started him off on a bad foot because the feeling was Helms was a quiet hard-working guy being made fun of and slapped and that Helms was only defending himself when he did his comeback. Bagwell still had a good size gash on his head when he showed up for TV in Atlanta. Bagwell also arrived late for the practices almost every day in Stamford, CT to get used to the new ring and was said to be the only one not taking the practices seriously. He also arrived late for the house show in Spokane. The original plan was for Bagwell to work the weekend house shows against Morrus and put him over, but the decision was made to pull him from the bookings and put Jindrak in. Even though that was an office decision, most of the wrestlers were under the impression he had called in sick so to speak. At the second night in Tacoma, after the show went off the air, they set up an angle where the WCW crew that was doing the beat down in the back on Undertaker (Stasiak, Kanyon, Bagwell, Awesome, DDP) would come back in the ring and the NWO B team guys (Bradshaw's crew) would run them off. It was set up for all the WCW guys to run off, leaving only Bagwell in the ring, for what appeared to be the typical APA legit punishment as he was power bombed very hard and complained afterwards of a neck injury. They didn't want a situation where he may have said the wrong word to someone since he has so much heat with so many of the wrestlers that it caused a scene, plus felt Jindrak was younger and has more long-term potential so it doesn't hurt to give him the experience. Bradshaw was ribbing Bagwell hard about his mother, the legendary former tag team champion Judy Bagwell, calling the office and complaining about Buff's travel reservations on more than one occasion. There was even a pool among some of the wrestlers as to how long he'll last. Most of the over/under predictions seem to be Labor Day, although one person actually had it as early as 7/4, only missing by five days. Somebody also punched a hole in Bagwell's hat

If you want to know, in a nutshell, why the WCW thing was such a flop, this web site story on the brief history of the feud says it with amazing clarity. "For over 50 years, the World Wrestling Federation has been the dominant force in sports-entertainment. Thanks to the vision of Federation chairman Vince McMahon, the company has become a billion-dollar conglomerate, and a worldwide media presence. For a few years in the late 1990s, WCW overtook the Federation in the Monday night ratings war, using former Federation talent to do so. For years, the NWO was a dominant force in the sports-entertainment industry, with WCW giving fans the impression that the NWO was a Federation entity. Soon, though, the tide shifted back to the WWF, and the Federation soon dominated to the point where WCW nearly went out of business. But shortly before WrestleMania, Shane McMahon purchased the fledgling company, giving it new hope." One of these days, perhaps when it's too late, the company is going to realize they own WCW and it serves them no purpose to continue to bury their history. It is this specific mentality that they've pushed that resulted in the audience reaction they've received. If this isn't Dusty and the UWF all over again, it's probably only worse. Dusty may have buried UWF in booking, but on the television show, or in NWA programs, they never portrayed them as a loser company that they had saved from death

The situation with Morrus and Jindrak has been largely blown out of proportion although there was an altercation. Jindrak was working out in the ring and messed up some spots. Morrus, as a veteran would do in this situation, told him what he was doing wrong. Jindrak responded calling him a fat slob who had never done anything in the business. It didn't escalate from there. Reportedly WWF officials that were there got a real bad taste regarding Jindrak's attitude. Jim Ross had a meeting with the WCW crew regarding how some are perceiving their attitude and right now, with the lone exception of Bagwell, WWF officials seem to be happy with how everyone is adapting after a rough early start

From most accounts, the heat between WWF and WCW got a lot worse after Monday and Tuesday. A lot of resentment on both sides, which is again, exactly like the Mid South deal in 1987, and for that matter, the Roller Games deal in 1974. A lot of WWF wrestlers are already seeing the angle as a major flop based on early crowd reactions. From WCW side, there are those saying that even WCW was more organized long-term and well planned out than WWF. But the general feeling seems to be that WWF is so much more professional in every aspect than WCW. Those who have been in WWF for a long time say they'd never experienced anything like this atmosphere. The original plans became irrelevant because of crowd reactions. The reports were that things were a lot better as it pertains to morale at the house shows

The belief is that DDP is still doing too much comedy in his bumping on the road shows against Undertaker and Awesome is getting mixed reviews. Awesome did great moves for a big guy, but most of those moves he's not going to be able to do here, and as a worker, he was always highly overrated because his flying moves were so impressive. In Japan and ECW, he was able to get over as a monster. But in WWF, that isn't the case and as a medium-sized guy, his weaknesses in working with people, particularly against limited workers like Undertaker and Kane, become apparent. The company seems most happy with the ring work of Kanyon, Kidman and Storm

The feeling among the wrestlers is that the reason the WCW angle failed, is because with only a few exceptions, none of the guys can work. Except, how much chance did they have to prove it? Think about this, Booker vs. Bagwell stunk. Helms vs. Kidman, both were rusty, but they still had a better match than all but probably one match on that show. Booker vs. Page was very good, the only problem was the crowd mentally quitting on them before they even started. But despite a lot of talk inside that this isn't the case, most of the WWF wrestlers have a very negative attitude still toward most of the WCW wrestlers on the dressing room etiquette and lack of respect, and there is already negativity among the WWF wrestlers with the agents hired from WCW (and if they don't go to split crews, these will be the guys whose jobs are in jeopardy), in specific Ricky Santana, Dave Finlay and Arn Anderson. Johnny Ace, the ultimate politician, who has a tremendous knack of telling everyone what they want to hear, is the exception to that

Backstage story this week. Jindrak & O'Haire at catering sat at a table where HHH was and kept to themselves. They never introduced themselves, and after a while, HHH got up, and made a minor production over introducing himself to them. The basic gist is that some of the WCW are cockier than they should be, but others who are coming across not so well, simply don't know better

Fashion faux pas at the PPV. Van Dam, unbeknownst to him, when he got his airbrushed tights, had a skull on it, which is Austin's gimmick. The feeling on Van Dam was mixed after the show. Many thought he was awesome since his match stole the show. Others thought that he didn't know how to work and wouldn't be able to adapt if he didn't have the "right" opponent like Hardy was

The whole storyline with Angle and especially Austin hugging Vince was an inside parody on DDP. When Page first cut his deal with Vince and Vince went to shake his hand, Page hugged Vince like they were long-time best friends and they made a storyline out of it

 

[stro]

In retrospect, the Invasion angle probably would have been even more of a disaster if the actual stars had come in at the same time in 2001. Imagine that situation but with the additional ego and attitude problems of Hogan/Goldberg/Steiner/Nash/Hall. There was no way the angle was going to work out after how bitter everything got.

 

[Honga Ciganesta]

That would've been too much fukkery. Bradshaw trying to mess with Steiner's headress

HHH being around at the time would've been something too, he'd have probably tried to one up Taker. I think in the whole invasion this c*nt has left his feet 2 times.

I remember Nash getting pissy at Rock over ''Big Daddy bytch'' the next year.

 

[stro]

Yeah Taker is probably the worst dude the entire Invasion, he seemed to actively be trying to make all of those dudes look as bad as possible. Not only did he constantly destroy Kanyon and DDP, but he also wouldn't sell for Booker, and definitely wouldn't do shyt for anyone below those 3. The one that really stands out to me is that they had Rhino killing everyone. All the top guys got smashed by him, Rock ends up bumping like death for him and has like 5 matches where he loses to Rhino's team.

Taker squashed him in 2 1/2 minutes.

 

[Honga Ciganesta]

Kane and Taker demolished O Haire and Chuck on the Raw before Summerslam too, just gave them nothing. Fair enough the WCW fellas weren't being pushed and it was building to the PPV but then at the PPV they totally squash DDP and Kanyon. Then Sara pins DDP on Raw. Taker was just the fukking worst during all this.

 

[Legal]

Man, reading all that Invasion period stuff reminded me of how shytty it was.

It lasted forever, and essentially none of the ECW/WCW guys were ever really put over.

I remember the shyt lasting forever, and feeling pointless since it felt like the only major wins we're going to WWF guys that defected. Although I vaguely remember the Survivor Series match to end it being pretty decent.

 

[stro]

The only guys that did well during the Invasion and coming out of it were RVD and Rhyno. Booker was booked as a joke and it wasn't until AFTER the Invasion and brand split happened that they started doing anything meaningful with him, but a lot of 2002 Raw was built around Booker as much as anyone else.

Everyone else was thrown in the bushes immediately. I guess Hurricane had a pretty good run out of it.

 

[NYChase718]

Kane and Taker demolished O Haire and Chuck on the Raw before Summerslam too, just gave them nothing. Fair enough the WCW fellas weren't being pushed and it was building to the PPV but then at the PPV they totally squash DDP and Kanyon. Then Sara pins DDP on Raw. Taker was just the fukking worst during all this.

I think Kronic (bryan adams and clark) debuted and didnt last long. Cant remember if it was due to being buried or they sucked. But they were involved wit taker

 

[DoubleJ13]

 

[stro]

Dave STILL hasn't cleaned that room?

 

[Jmare007]

Dave STILL hasn't cleaned that room?

At least he changed his shirt

That's gotta be the most unnatural sitting pose ever. Never change Dave

 

[Honga Ciganesta]

The man at work That's a classic issue too, some of his best writing



WWE mutants are up in arms Will they cancel Dave

 

[stro]

Boy when WWE's PR team gets a hold of that and ruins Dave's week

 

[ig88]

The man at work That's a classic issue too, some of his best writing



WWE mutants are up in arms Will they cancel Dave

Wonder if the korean njpw show got 6 stars for being so close to tokyo


Lmao at dude saying if nazis wrestled in tokyo theyd have 5 stars from dave